Jack the dog has a nice 1924 transitional up for sale

[gbethu]

I disagree . It was a $5000 pistol that sold for $8555. You were correct.

[jdsal]

I disagree . It was a $5000 pistol that sold for $8555. You were correct.

If you been watching trends they are absolutely selling in the 8-9k range for ones of this condition, even without the correct slide stop.

[gbethu]

I do understand....and I get your point about overpaying for any pistol. I currently own a 10K and a 12K version of the 1924 M1911, They are both 90-95%, (the 12K may be 98%) original finish/configuration examples. I recently sold a 100% original, 87-88% finish 1924 for $8500. That's correct....... While this pistol with a 75% (maximum) finish, incorrect slide stop and incorrect barrel (a maybe $1000 item on its own) went for $8555, I was selling a private collector a superior pistol for less money. Am I too cheap or is the other seller too high? I'll leave it at that for others to decide. The main thing I've learned is pay for condition, condition and condition. The people who pay this high price for a very unoriginal, worn finish example will be fortunate to recover their outlay in the next 5 to 10 years.
I'll apologize to anyone who differs in opinion as the motto has always been "to each his own". Just using these chats boards to discuss differing views.

[jdsal]

Very well put!
All I was countering it's more than a 5000.00 pistle by today's trends.
I recently sold a beater though all original I still netted 5000.00.

[Scott Gahimer]

The only sure thing about values, or what a particular item sells for, is that the price is determined between a buyer and seller at the point of sale. Sales prices rarely reflect actual "value" to everyone because not only do opinions differ, but circumstances differ as well. Some people overpay due to ignorance, they have a lot of disposable income, ego (in an auction setting) and a number of other reasons far too many to know. I've seen people pay far more than I would, simply because they had a sequential serial number pistol. I know others who have overpaid (IMO) because of date of manufacture, shipping date, shipping destination, original recipient, etc.

Everyone has their reasons for asking what they do when they sell or paying what they do when they buy. It does little good criticizing someone for how they value something. I think it is most important for buyers to be sure they know exactly what they buying. Then they have a better chance arriving at what it is worth to them. A seller who sells at a set price simply should price the item based on what it is worth to him. It is is worth $5 to him, IMO, it's reasonable to think he would sell it for more to someone else...unless of course, he is selling because he needs the money. If he needs money, all bets are off. He may accept less than what he thinks the item is worth.

Where it really gets sticky is when opinions of value are based on ignorance regarding originality. Too many fail to see things that are either incorrect, or correct (but replaced). And then, all people don't value "originality" the same way. Some are content with swapping parts to correct; I'm not. So I may not value an item as high as another buyer. Who's right? It is always up to the buyer what he pays. Even when the seller sets a price, the buyer determines if he is willing to pay that price.

Some buyers like to bitch, whine or complain about what they paid for something. I've never really understood that. It was their choice in the first place. Complaining about a seller's price? The same applies. It's none of their business how a seller prices an item. It only their business if they are willing to pay that price.

One thing that is all too common in all collecting fields is that people often think their items are better, or worth more than those belonging to someone else. Well, that's obvious, too. They chose to buy it in the first place. But where it sometimes gets almost comical is when you see folks with fake, altered, non-original items who value those items higher than a similar item offered by someone else. I think much of the time that stems from big egos living in denial about the things they've purchased...and sometimes paid big prices for. Granted, for some it's just chump change; to others it is ignorance.

Ultimately, it always boils down to sellers and buyers making an agreement. When that happens, nobody has a right to complain. Nobody got robbed (a seller or the buyer). If the seller didn't ask enough, too bad. If the buyer paid too much, too bad. If the item was misrepresented, well then it does go a bit deeper. But ultimately, we're all big boys and have to accept that we are responsible for our own actions. If I don't know enough, then I have the responsibility to find out...period. All the bitching and whining about prices is uncalled for.

On the 1924 in this thread, the buyer paid more than I would, due to incorrect and non-original parts. I think the seller pretty well described to condition and rating of finish. He accurately described the barrel and showed good photos of it, and noted that the 1924 barrels are normally marked "K". The barrel has been altered, but I suspect he didn't know that. Someone reported he just simply missed the slide stop being incorrect.

So what is a mid-90s% 1924 worth that is all original? How much do you deduct for the incorrect parts? How much do you deduct for the altered (non-original) status of the pistol? Those are all questions a bidder has to ask himself, or someone else. If I'd been asked, I would have concentrated on spelling out what is incorrect and altered, and tell someone what an original pistol is worth (to me) in the same condition. I'd ask them what's important to them, and what they want in the pistol? If they want an original piece, then I'd say this isn't for you. If they're perfectly content with non-original parts and think they can "correct" the pistol, then I'd ask what is "originality" worth to them? But in the end, it's always up to the buyer/bidder to decide what he might pay. I often don't agree with the thinking of buyers, but they're not spending my money. So...

[gbethu]

Very well reasoned and well said. We all value things differently. If it was my Dad's gun carried in the first wave in Normandy then all the convential metrics for value go out the window. If you just "gotta" have the original barrel that " Betty" , in the Colt factory selected from the pile of barrels....then that's a lot more scarce. Some collector's would value the barrel "Betty" picked up for far more money that the one adjacent.....who really cares ??? Well, obviously some do. I don't

Art, Real Estate, Antique car values are all market driven well. You can bet the value of high end M1911s will shrink when oil remains below $30 a barrel....so will many other pricey antiques that enjoyed a strong, well funded market.

I buy the guns I truly like....they aren't necessarily "investments". I'll let my estate worry about values. I have the change...I don't call it chump change as I had to beat the industrial market to acquire it, but I won't refuse to purchase a beautiful original 1 or two digit serial number M1911 just because the seller wants top dollar and someone else replaced "Betty's"worn out barrel with a better original example.

[prewar]

Maybe buying from a high profile seller makes the buyer feel better about the pistols problems.

Yes that's it Jonny as you know he gets more for his stuff than other sellers and this is not the first time something like this has happened .I won one of his auctions years ago and I knew when I won it there was something wrong with the gun (it should have went for more ) and I was prepared to bid higher ,to make a long story short the gun had issues you could not see in his pictures and I sent it back and he claimed he did not see these issues when he photographed it and there was no way he missed them .