Indian War US Canteen w/strap

[Major Tom]

Hi, all
I'm looking to buy an original or even a reproduction of stated item. The ones I find online are way too pricey for my beer budget. I did find one for $75, but, was outbid by $1.
Anyone know of sources for such? I thank you for your replies.

[JBinIll]

Here's one supplier of reproductions with a good rep-

http://www.cooncreekoldwest.com/coon_html/Canteens.html

[alibi]

As with anything in militaria the price of material culture items varies widely based on a number of variables. For collectors, authenticity, condition, relative rarity, and provenance are the most common conditions to consider for “market value.” One point of market value I often make mention of is the disparity between the values placed on items by buyers, and dealers.

All of the military canteens issued during the "Indian Wars", which technically covers a period long before the American Civil War to the last of the military operations in the 1890s, the canteens used were principally the "pattern" canteens currently issued. I assume you're referring to the post Civil War decades.

In the miltaria business any canteen in the general shape of the canteens used during the Civil War is usually identified as of Civil War origin, probably through misidentification or to increase the market value by the dealer. As a consequence canteens that should properly be considered as of "Indian Wars" vintage are occasionally listed as Civil War.

The fact of the matter is that all of the standard pattern canteens issued during the post Civil War decades usually described as the Indian Wars were in fact canteens acquired by the U.S. Army Quartermaster Department during the Civil War. The Army was slowly going through an evolution of weapons and equipment that resulted in incremental modifications to the canteen that was intended to improve serviceability, that is to make the canteen more useful for a longer period of time.

In conjunction with the Palmer "Brace System" and associated equipment recommended for adoption and general issue by the Infantry Equipment Board in 1875 the canteen was provided with an adjustable woven strap. On the recommendation of the Quartermaster General responsibility for the individual field equipment was transferred to the Ordnance Department and all modifications to the Civil War canteens issued during the late 19th Century Indian Wars was accomplished by the Ordnance Department.

From 1876 to 1890 two arsenals were involved with manufacture of field equipment simultaneously. In 1890 Watervliet Arsenal was converted to a gun factory and Rock Island Arsenal was the principal source of individual field equipment thereafter.

1. 1875-76 - Civil war canteens (mostly corrugated pattern) the straps, wool covers and cork assembly was removed and replaced with respectively a woven web adjustable strap, re-covered with Petersham wool cover, the chain or chord was replaced by brass chain, and the cork assembly was attached to a brass wire ring around the spout of the canteen.

2. 1876-1882 - Similar to 1 except the canteen was “double-covered” with a duck cover assembled over the Petersham cover. The cover was stenciled “U.S.“. In later variation of this modification the original bottom strap loop was removed. This modification was accomplished by both arsenals, field depots, and units.

3. 1878-circa1890 - An adjustable and detachable leather strap was adopted. The canteen was further modified with the assembly of triangular wire loops assembled with sheet steel tin plated clips soldered to the original strap loops. A variation of this modification the triangular loops were assembled into holes on either side of the original strap loops.

4. circa 1890-1897 - All of the original strap loops were removed and the triangular loops were attached with sheet steel tin plated loops soldered directly to the canteen. The cover was printed “U.S.”.

5. 1898 - Same as 4 except some of these canteens the original jack chain was retained assembled to one of the triangular strap loops. The cover was printed with the more familiar Roman style “U.S.”.

Number 3 is I suppose the canteen most associated with the Indian Wars campaigns of the 1880-90s. The p1878 leather straps in good condition often go for around $75 and the canteen for around $100. The modified canteen described as number 5 was strictly War with Spain rebuild, but are often misrepresented as examples of Civil War or Indian Wars issue.

Replicas of the straps and canteens were created in small quantities, and rarely encountered.

As with any collectible it may be of benefit to consider the acquisition of material culture items as an investment rather than anguish over current prices. I advocate that people refrain from collecting material items and instead acquire reference books (see my response in “Need ideas from you collectors” in this same forum). Most of the equipment I formerly collected has gained in value, in some cases exponentially.

References that are by no means complete, but do show images of some of the canteens described, and may be useful to identification of “Indian Wars“ canteens:

McChristian, Douglas C., “The U.S. Army in the West, 1870-1880” 1995.

O’Donnell, Mike, “U.S. Army & Militia Canteens 1775-1910” 2008.

[Bill F]

I know nothing about canteens and this is not about canteens.To see a question asked by a novice like we all are/were get answered by a thoughtful and obviously knowledgeable collector is still nice to see.alibi ,you should have a gold star by your name here.my 2 cents.

[alibi]

I know nothing about canteens and this is not about canteens.To see a question asked by a novice like we all are/were get answered by a thoughtful and obviously knowledgeable collector is still nice to see.alibi ,you should have a gold star by your name here.my 2 cents.

Thank you for the kind comment. I would like to point out that I stopped collecting about 30 years ago, and my advice is to obtain reference works rather than material culture equipment, but alas the adventure of "finding" stuff on the table of a dealer still holds fascination for many. I always get a laugh when a collector states he "found" some item at a gun show or on eBay. As much gnashing of teeth that is generated over online auctions I have to say that in all the years I was collecting (before eBay) I never saw so many different examples of field mess kit equipment as I have since signing on to eBay in 1998.

This goes to the question at hand on this thread. Patience and a little knowledge about how to use eBay to best advantage would be useful to obtaining, at a reasonable price, an "Indian War" canteen and strap. It is useful to search the online auctions with the appropriate key words to obtain results. I have found that sellers do not always know what they have except that it is a canteen, and acquired a few nice examples of canteens to examine and photograph from the category "TIN WARE". Doing an item by item search of say "MILITARIA" sub-category "INDIAN WAR" is too time consuming, and you may miss a suitable example at a fair price listed elsewhere.

The problem is as I previously mentioned sellers and dealers rarely accurately identify what they have and canteens that even remotely resemble Civil War canteens will be listed in that category. This would not be so bad except the seller usually has over priced the item because they think it is in fact Civil War, or knowingly miss-list it there in the hope that some unsuspecting and unknowledgeable collector will bid.

The only way to properly assess any item that you are contemplating acquiring and getting what you want is to acquire knowledge of the equipment. For example the replica canteen offered as "Indian War" on the web site previously linked on this thread has the 1898 and later style "U.S." (number 5 in my previous post) and is misrepresented as Indian War period. I perused the website and it did not surprise me that the canteen is misidentified as most of the replica equipment offered has obvious deviations from the genuine articles. It occurred to me this may have been intentional so there is no question the equipment is replicated, but I also thought perhaps they just don't know the correct nomenclature, pattern year, and etc. For example, the web canteen strap identified as "1902" is clearly marked "1913" and the construction is incorrect from the original, which 1/4 million were manufactured in 1904-05. Where the dealer got the 1902 date from and then marked them 1913 is a mystery.

I am engaged in researching and writing a book on U.S. individual field mess equipment: the equipment issued that is used to sustain life - canteens, cups, meat cans, utensils and etc.

[JBinIll]

If you go with a repro here's a list of suppliers from the Grand Army of the Frontier Forum over on CAS City-

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/ind...c,33884.0.html

Here's an original-

http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitari...8_item_018.htm

[alibi]

I think perhaps some images to illustrate what I was previously attempting to describe is appropriate - as the saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words. I do this primarily to illustrate that the style or font of the "U.S." on the canteens purported to be Indian Wars replica, and vintage, in the websites linked in previous posts, wasn't adopted until 1898.

Examples of double-cover canteens to illustrate details:
A. p1876 - original strap loops covered, adjustable web strap (note no "U.S." applied - probably a depot or unit assembled cover).
B. p1878 (1878-1899) - triangular loops soldered to original strap loops, stenciled "U.S."
C. p1878 (1890-1897) - triangular loops soldered to canteen, type 1 printed "U.S."

Example of new manufacture canteen by Rock Island Arsenal 1898-1902:
D. p1898 type 2 printed "U.S." this same cover assembled to double-covered canteens in 1898.

[JBinIll]

So,which one of those is in the $75 price range the OP has in mind?

[alibi]

The Mc Phetters Antique Militaria link is obviously not useful to Maj Tom. The "Indian War" canteen (listed at $295.00) is a pattern 1898 and therefore misidentified. The leather sliding loops on the p1878 strap are of the riveted type, a change that occurred at R.I.A. in March 1900. The Army had changed over to the Canteen-Haversack strap in 1899 (similar to the haversack strap p1878). The U.S. Navy was the only requester of the "old Pattern" p1878 strap and if the riveted sliding loops are original to the strap it was acquired by the U.S. Navy.

McFeeter's descriptions of the listed items are typical dealer inaccurate hyperbole, and the prices for the listed items are typical dealer inflation.

I'm not a dealer and don't follow the market prices on this equipment. As I tried to indicate previously it might be possible to acquire an "Indian War" vintage canteen and strap at the specified amount of $75.00 with patience and diligence. However I am about identification here, and I hope Maj Tom has sufficient knowledge from the material and images posted here to at least know what he is looking for.

Added: I should have mentioned that much of my motivation to research and write the book in progress, is my disappointment and irritation (to put it mildly) at dealers, and why I quit collecting. It is my mission to take the humbug from militaria dealers, with information that collectors can use to determine whether a dealer has the correct information and the militaria has historical collector value. There is a saying that is generic, but particulary appropriate for militaria dealers "You can tell a (militaria dealer), but you can't tell them much." I hope my published work will in some way send militaria dealers back to selling used cars, "land development property" that is slightly under water, bridges, or anything that doesn't have historical value attcahed to it. I don't begruge them a living, thay can just do it selling something other than militaria.

[JBinIll]

The Mc Phetters Antique Militaria link is obviously not useful to Maj Tom. The "Indian War" canteen (listed at $295.00) is a pattern 1898 and therefore misidentified.

LOL That isn't the only thing on that site misidentified and overpriced.