How Many Sniper Rifles Did the Marines Have in WWI?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

The quick answer is 900 rifles, all with Niedner taper bases screwed and soldered to the barrel and receiver. Niedner scoped 150 rifles and WRA scoped 750 rifles. The best way to look at the procession of orders and events is by formulating a timetable as shown below.

Timetable.jpg

The Marines had 3 orders for mounting scopes on rifles. The first was for 150 rifles on which Niedner mounted A5 scopes in modified #2 mounts with Niedner taper bases. McDougal and Smith hired Niedner for the job. This order was needed to equip the 5^th Marine Regiment while they were mustering in Philly in June of 1917. The 150 rifles were sufficient to also equip the 6^th Marine Regiment, which would muster in February of 1918. One of Maj. Holcomb's last tasks as Inspector of Target Practice was to order 500 rifles, on 2 July 1917, just like the ones Niedner scoped "as approved by Holcomb" to be scoped by WRA, after Niedner was investigated by the FBI for treason. Maj. McDougal becomes Inspector of Target Practice after Holcomb takes command of the 2/6 and orders 250 rifles to be scoped by WRA "as approved by Holcomb" on 11 Sept 1917. These 900 identical scoped rifles will equip both regiments and both sniper schools with a surplus. The majority of the rifles were issued at GITMO, by Maj. Fay, to sniper candidates for both sniper schools, Deer Point and the Overseas Depot (OSD).

There is no evidence, known to me, that any other rifles were scoped for the Marines, with the possible exception of Maj. McDougal's Heavy Barrel Sniper Rifles (HBSR's).

On 5 Jan 1918, McDougal contacted WRA with a request for 1000 heavy barrels and stocks for the M1903 Springfield rifle. On 8 April 1918, McDougal ordered 1000 A5 scopes for his concept of a more accurate heavy barrel sniper rifle he intended to assemble. McDougal had salvaged 1000 receivers for the project, but he needed stocks and barrels. He contacted Springfield Armory for the stocks, but nothing has surfaced about his dealings with SA. McDougal still needed the heavy barrels from WRA. WRA V.P Brewer was not enthralled about making the heavy barrels, because he believed the order was more trouble than he needed for the money WRA would make. Maj. McDougal had made two of the rifles using pressure test barrels, but it is not known, to me, if any others were ever made. Those two HB sniper rifles McDougal had made are the rarest Marine sniper rifles in existence.

McDougal received 926 A5 scopes from WRA by war's end. No definitive evidence of assembly of scoped rifles by the Marines has been found by me. No delivery of barrels or stocks has surfaced to date, so it is unlikely any scoped rifles were assembled by the Marines. One of the letters below indicates McDougal was unable to obtain rifles, or barrels, "from the government".

The totality of viable evidence indicates the Marines had a total of 900 taper based Marine Mount sniper rifles scoped by Niedner and WRA.

The last two communications on this matter are in the next post below. I am limited to 5 pics per post.

Letter from Brewer to Maxson About HB Snipers 1 - Annotated.jpgBarbers Memo to Brewer on HB Accuracy 3- Annotated.jpgLetter from Brewer to Tredwell About HB Snipers 2 - Annotated.jpgBrwerer 2nd Letter to Maxson About HB Snipers 4a - Annotated.jpg

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I hope this has been informative for the reader. The heavy barrel sniper rifle is new ground. It has never been published before tonight. Enjoy.

Jim

Brwerer 2nd Letter to Maxson About HB Snipers 4b - Annotated.jpgBrewer Letter to Tredwell to Abandon Projest 5 - Annotated.jpg

[cplnorton]

These docs have been passed around for a while now between the sniper collectors. They have been on facebook and a few other places.

The 900 total A5 number is not correct. It's impossible for anyone to say how many were made total.

The Marines had 150 mounted by Niedner.

The Marines had Winchester mount 500 A5 scopes on rifles they provided.

The Marines received 926 loose A5 scopes on a 1000 scope contract, and likely received the remainder after the war. They built an undisclosed number of Rifles with these loose scopes.

The Marines also purchased used A5 scopes off the Army in between the wars and continued to build A5 Sniper rifles all the way into 1941, and I find evidence they might have been building them as late as 1944.

There is no possible way ANYONE can denote exactly how many A5 snipers or A5 team rifles were made. I have found so many contracts it's impossible to know for sure.

[cplnorton]

Your 900 number is not correct though. You are missing at least two more A5 contracts on the chart you just posted and actually counted one contract as two orders in your spreadsheet.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

These docs have been passed around for a while now between the sniper collectors. They have been on facebook and a few other places.

Show us.

The 900 total A5 number is not correct. It's impossible for anyone to say how many were made total.

Learn to comprehend what you read. The two orders plus the Niedner rifles totaled 900. That is what I stated and it is correct.

The Marines had 150 mounted by Niedner.

Are you just repeating what I presented?

The Marines had Winchester mount 500 A5 scopes on rifles they provided.

Why are you repeating what I presented?

The Marines received 926 loose A5 scopes on a 1000 scope contract, and likely received the remainder after the war. They built an undisclosed number of Rifles with these loose scopes.

Show us the evidence the Marines built sniper rifles with those scopes.

The Marines also purchased used A5 scopes off the Army in between the wars and continued to build A5 Sniper rifles all the way into 1941, and I find evidence they might have been building them as late as 1944.

The post clearly states WWI. Start a new thread if you want to discuss events between the wars.

There is no possible way ANYONE can denote exactly how many A5 snipers or A5 team rifles were made. I have found so many contracts it's impossible to know for sure.

You are stating the obvious, but it has nothing to do with my post.

- - - Updated - - -

Your 900 number is not correct though. You are missing at least two more A5 contracts on the chart you just posted and actually counted one contract as two orders in your spreadsheet.

Show us the orders. Be specific.

[cplnorton]

I'm not going to argue this with you.

But your 900 number is not correct. You are confusing several contacts, but even with that, it's still likely more than 900 made in WWI. They didn't quit building them at war's end. But it doesn't matter. There is no possible way to ever know how many total were made.

[lyman]

gentlemen,

I appreciate and am happy to see the posts, and learn a bit when I read them
and glad both of you are posting here,


please show each other the respect each of you deserve,

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

To be honest, I was trying to be respectful. I just wanted him to be specific.

[lyman]

not saying either of you were or were not, just asking to keep it civil and between the ditches

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

That I will do. I understand your position and agree.