"Lend Lease" M1s?

[AlanD]

No, they didn't arrive in theater unarmed. For whatever reason it was decided that some units would be equipped with American equipment including small arms. I dont know why this was so.

[PhillipM]

No, they didn't arrive in theater unarmed. For whatever reason it was decided that some units would be equipped with American equipment including small arms. I dont know why this was so.

I've seen pictures.

I think at the time the UN was American policy writ large and the US provided the arms and ammo. The UK was broke.

[Johnny P]

"Table LL-14-Quantities of selected items included in War Department Lend-Lease shipments, 1941-1945, United States Army in World War II Statistics, Office of the Chief of Military History, Special Staff, U.S. Army, Historical Manuscript File, pp. 28-29, RG 156, WNRC."

For anyone with the desire to look it up, this is where Charles Clawson found his quantities of Lend-Lease small arms shipments.

[firstflabn]

The 38,001 number is for the British Empire (excluding Canada), not the UK alone. If there were any Garands provided to the dominions directly or delivered to them through the British, they would have been included in this total and any additional quantities supplied in-theater would not have shown up at all. Table LL-14 is a summary, so details necessarily get lost. It helps to read the notes, not just glance at a table.

I'm a huge admirer of Clawson's efforts, but this points to the problem of people taking secondary sources as the last word on any subject. It's easy to lose context, leave out important distinctions, and misinterpret facts.

I'm certain the answer is residing in a file folder in College Park (the notes mention L/L data compiled on monthly forms which themselves relied on data from shipping tickets), but no one takes the question seriously enough to undertake the work of finding it. So, incomplete as it is, 38,001 is the only answer available - but using it requires some explanation to avoid misleading the neophyte. Maybe it needs something like the Roger Maris asterisk (61*).

[Johnny P]

And really, he was noting Lend-Lease shipments to the various allies. Just a table in his book on the history and development of the 1911/1911A1 pistol rather than delving into the history of Lend-Lease itself.

[firstflabn]

Well said, Johnny. In trying to draw out some of the fine points, my post came across a bit harsh towards you. It didn't come out the way I originally thunk it.

Keep up the good work. I don't know if we'll ever catch 'em, but pretty sure we're getting closer.

[can14]

Canada had m1 Garand and carbines which the government paid for and issued. Much of the Canadian stuff was dumped into the ocean after ww2. My Dad spent months working on a Barge in Prince Rupert BC
dumping everything in the ocean, these dumping grounds were marked on charts. All US and Canadian equipment was dumped. In the mid 60s the Armory was decommissioned and all the guns,ammo and parts
were dumped also

[Johnny P]

Canada received 8,014 M1 Rifles, 230 M1 Carbines, and 1,515 1911A1 pistols via Lend-Lease. After the war a quantity of the 1911A1 pistols came back into the U.S. via England with post 1954 British commercial proofs.

Prior to the Lend-Lease Act England established the British Purchasing Commission in the U.S. which purchased weapons from U.S. Manufacturers. At Colt they literally bought everything on the shelf. Virtually all the weapons were in U.S. calibers, so most the weapons were first shipped to Winchester Repeating Arms where they were packed with the proper ammunition and shipped to England.

This is one of the Model 1911A1 pistols Lend-Leased to Canada, showing the Canadian broad-arrow C property mark. The barrel, slide, and receiver show the post 1954 British commercial proofs indicating the pistols went to England before being sold commercially.

[Chaz]

So, is this Lend Lease or Sales? Except for a few handling marks it looks like it just came off the "boat". Yes, it has a British proof mark on barrel.

[Johnny P]

So, is this Lend Lease or Sales? Except for a few handling marks it looks like it just came off the "boat". Yes, it has a British proof mark on barrel.

Yes it is, and a beauty. The red band on the front hand guard is normally gone, but traces of yours remain. Don't remove it. As mentioned previously, for the most part the rifles sat in a warehouse from 1941/42 until the British government released them for sale in the late 1950's. Is yours proofed in the chamber area of the barrel, or out on the barrel between the gas cylinder rings?

During the proofing process crossed sceptres with an initial on the left and right side of the X formed by the sceptres were applied. Can you make out those initials, with the right side most likely being a B.