WW2 Marine Procurement Question

[Deacon]

Good morning/afternoon,

Did the Marines during WW2 procure their 1911A1's from the Navy, or were their pistols obtained through some other channel(s)?

Thanks for your time, in advance.



Deacon

[cplnorton]

I have been searching the same thing for many years. I've sort of come to a couple conclusions. I don't think they actually received a lot of 1911A1's in WWII. I've talked to a couple WWII Marines that have told me 1911 pistols were sort of rare to see in the Pacific. They told me the Marines that rated the 1911's were issued carbines instead of pistols.

Also for instance I saw a weapons after action report that gave the precise number of weapons of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th Marine Divisions on Iwo Jima. On the paperwork it detailed the precise number of weapons that were on the island. For instance they had right around 20,000 M1 Rifles, and I think it was almost 30,000 M1 Carbines. But then I noticed something I found really interesting. Under 1911 pistols it was a very small amount. I think it was like 500 or 600 or something around that number. I know I was really surprised as Iwo was one of the largest Marine offensives of the war and they still had less than a 1000 pistols total.

I have seen one more after action weapons report, I forget which island, but it was in 1944, and it was the same thing as well. Just very small amounts of pistols.

I did find a document from late 1950 that said the Marines had a total number of 40,000 1911 pistols. If this number is accurate you have to wonder how many 1911A1's they even would have received in WWII. The Marines in WWI received about 9000 total till 1917. And an unknown amount in 1918 and 1919, but I know they received quite a few. Especially in that late 600,000 range.

So yeah I would be interested to know too. But I just have a feeling with the emphasis put on the carbine, and the small number of 1911 pistols, especially on islands like Iwo. They might not have received very many A1's at all, and the WWI 1911's might have been the main pistol for the Marines in the war.

I sort of suspect honestly that the Marines didn't received most of their A1's till after WWII, but that is only a wild a@@ guestimate by me.

[cplnorton]

I imagine if they did received shipments of A1's, it came from Army Channels. I have seen some documents of the Marines trading Carbines with the Navy. But I have not seen any documents of them requesting weapons directly from the Navy.

But I have seen so many Marine documents requesting rifles from Army Channels. And then being shipped from Army Channels to the Marines.

So if I was a betting man, the huge amount of times I've seen the words, Army Channel, in WWII Marine Documents. I would say it's likely they would have come from there as well.

[Deacon]

Thank you very much for the comprehensive answer, cplnorton. That was just the type of information I was seeking.



Deacon

[Mikecp]

Instead to have papers attached to a proper M1911A1 hard to know where they was shipped.
I have in my collection a M1911A1 Ithaca #2'090,850 which is a Navy it has been shipped to Oakland Army Depot by November 17,1944.
Maybe this gun went to Iwo or Okinawa in 1945, simple conjecture who knows???
Or do you have any idea where these pistols could have been send from Oakland Army Depot?
We all like to know the Historic of our M1911A1

[firstflabn]

The USN WWII administrative history noted that the USMC relied on the army for small arms procurement. The SF POE and I believe also the Pacific supply depots were operated jointly, which would have the same effect. Whether budget entries were made to settle accounts doesn't really matter.

The starting point for any broad look at materiel authorizations is, of course, the tables of organization. Shortages and local exceptions (formal and informal) requiring deviations from the book were not infrequent, but let's stick with the T/Os.

Gordon Rottman's USMC WWII Order of Battle shows the following for authorized pistols in USMC divisions. The dates are revision dates. Note also that it appears that the 1st and 6th Divisions had already reorganized under the G-series for Okinawa - ahead of its formal adoption date, so a lot more pistols there.

D-series (1 Jul 42): 798 M1911 pistols
E-series (15 Apr 43): 299
F-series (5 May 44): 399
G-series (4 Sep 45): 1707

Remember, however, that the infantry divisions were only somewhere around one third of USMC WWII peak strength. So, plenty of opportunities for pistols in air, AA, tank, supply, and transport units.

Lacking any better info, I wouldn't be surprised in norton's 40k number is about right for the peak WWII number.

[Iceman66]

Marines in WWII were issued a number of different handguns, including revolvers. Among them were M1917 .45acp Colt and S&W revolvers (WWI war surplus re-issued), .38special Victory model S&W revolvers (Marine aviators), and possibly some .38special Commando model Colt revolvers, although most of these were issued to civilian homefront police and guards.

The military small arms accounting system, while presumed by most to be accurate, is in fact very flawed, with many small arms going missing annually. All will eventually be written off as non-recoverable and you could, after some period of time, register one without ever being charged or prosecuted.

[cplnorton]

I have to come back and correct myself, because I was wrong somewhat. I finally found out how many 1911 pistols they received in WWII. I do not know for sure if they were rebuilt 1911's off the Army or there were new A1's. But they received about 60,000 during the war. With the majority at the end when the war was winding down.