Page 3 of 11 FirstFirst 12345678 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 108
  1. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
    I think I'm being pretty logical. The observations don't fit KNOWN REALITY is why I'm objecting. The AR/M16/M4 must be treated very carefully to work in the desert, or failures occur. This is know and has been since we got to Iraq. My friends returning from the sandbox recently have emphasized the absolute need to do a through cleaning, every single day on your M4 - or to expect malfunctions.
    Without seeing the video you really have no idea on the conditions or the test itself.

    First, the M16 and cleaning thing. Whether the M16 is used in the desert, Arctic, my basement, or Disney-world really doesn't change what's happening there: unless it's cleaned the powder residue from that direct impingement system is going to gum up the works eventually. It's an artefact of the design and the environment is really irrelevant as it's not foreign matter (sand) but matter from the system itself. So the M14 doesn't suffer from that but that's the result of having a piston versus skipping it.

    Second, the M14 is going to be more sensitive to foreign matter introduced into the action as the action is open. Pour sand on an engine. No significant result. Pull the valve cover gaskets and repeat. Problems will result. The M16 having more of a "closed" action means it permits foreign matter to enter less than designs which have open actions.

    Third, to the test itself. The test is accurate as far as it goes. Blow sand into the M14 and it's going to jam. Blow it at the M16 and it won't as the action is "sealed" to a certain extent.

    Doesn't mean the test is logical or really that useful. If sand is blowing bad enough to enter the system that rapidly it won't be from a pile of it next to the gun being blown with compressed air. It'll be sand everywhere. Which means you'll not be able to see more than about 5 feet. So I guess the M14 wins that one as it's more sturdy and you're going to need that to beat people to death as they're going to be too close to shoot.

    If sand is blowing that hard from a direction, turn the M14 so the floor plate is in the direction of the wind. There, sand isn't being blown into it. Holding the rifle sideways will decrease your use of the sight but, again, with visibility limited you're pretty much just shooting in a compass direction anyway.

    If the sand is blowing that hard, and does regularly, do not lube the M14. With the chamber area being dry, and sand being dry, holding the rifle upside down will permit gravity to clean the sand out in a downward direction. Either pull the trigger in that orientation or turn it sideways. Again, visibility is causing more harm than sand getting into the weapon. Lube will permit the sand to stick.

    So, yes, guns with open actions are going to jam with sand blowing around that that rate. "Action covers" existed for guns from the 1890s into the 1950s. Krags, M-1903s, SMLEs, and the M1 carbine. Probably others and later. It's to keep the action clean of debris in those situations. When the sand settles down visibility returns and you then ensure the gun isn't gummed up and start banging away. If somebody shows up before the sand dies down I'd suggest the use of an entrenching shovel. Sand doesn't jam those.

    So the test is accurate as far as it goes. What it proves is M14s don't operate well in sand storms. Neither do humans. Nor motor transport. In other news, cars don't run well underwater, solar panels don't work well in thunderstorms, and pork doesn't sell well in Jordan.

    Interested in reading more? I'd suggest tracking down a book titled: "a job of pipe." Royal Engineer in North Africa during the Rommel/Montgomery thing. During sand storms everyone pretty much tries to find a spot that it's not blowing up your nose or in your mouth. Masks help but aren't 100% effective. No doubt why the shooter in that film is wearing a gas mask. That'd get real old in the desert real fast.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    East of the Stick Marsh, FL
    Posts
    887

    Default

    Doubt if mine will be used in a really sandy environment. Unless I am called to the beach to repel invaders..........my house to the beach is four miles as the crow flies.
    USMC 1969-1993 6333/8153/9999
    USMC Combat Pistol & Shotgun Instructor
    FBI Rangemaster

  3. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 5MadFarmers View Post
    If sand is blowing that hard from a direction, turn the M14 so the floor plate is in the direction of the wind. There, sand isn't being blown into it. Holding the rifle sideways will decrease your use of the sight but, again, with visibility limited you're pretty much just shooting in a compass direction anyway.
    Good point, I would be trying to cover a rifle with anything available in those conditions. I've seen quite a few photos of Lee Enfields with web action covers. Wouldn't be a bad idea for an M14. Also, I have seen photos of troops on D Day entering landing craft with M1's in full length plastic bags. They knew that sand in mechanisms was a problem and developed ways to minimize it.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Jackson, Mississippi
    Posts
    5,938
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    I was just watching d-day on h2 and one of the vets on Omaha described he and other unarmed scattered troops being made into an ad hoc platoon by a lieutenant. First order: Every man find a weapon. Second order: Spread out your raincoats and clean them! After that they assaulted the sea wall and got off the beach.
    Last edited by PhillipM; 06-07-2015 at 03:05.
    Phillip McGregor (OFC)
    "I am neither a fire arms nor a ballistics expert, but I was a combat infantry officer in the Great War, and I absolutely know that the bullet from an infantry rifle has to be able to shoot through things." General Douglas MacArthur

  5. #25

    Default

    I NEVER had problems like that with my M14 that I carried through the mud sand and slush of every where from Hawaii through Vietnam.

    My opinion is that rather than a malfunctioning rifle that was jammed by sand, they had a malfunctioning Magazine that was affected by the sand and dirt. I have had that problem, new magazine fixed the problem. Also, didn't appear that any lubriplate was on the bolt or slideways, but I couldn't really tell.

    Just my 2cents worth.

    Jim Wright

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Jackson, Mississippi
    Posts
    5,938
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Thanks, Gunner.

    Your opinion carries a lot more weight than youtube heroes.
    Phillip McGregor (OFC)
    "I am neither a fire arms nor a ballistics expert, but I was a combat infantry officer in the Great War, and I absolutely know that the bullet from an infantry rifle has to be able to shoot through things." General Douglas MacArthur

  7. #27

    Default

    I've brought this up before, but while firing my M14 in a Rattle Battle at Ft. Ord years ago, sand jammed the action to the point it seriously bent the operating rod and disabled the rifle. This was due to my failure to remove the grease I normally lubed it with in less sandy conditions. For those that never shot at Ft. Ord, the range was on the beach just north of Monterey. That took me out of the match. I shot there again with a degreased rifle and won the leg match to earn my Distinguished Rifleman Badge (USAF No. 214). Stuff happens, but it shows that one should always be prepared for any conditions.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    mid Missouri
    Posts
    10,141

    Default

    Dern Ted, I was just going to opine that this scenario would never arise in the real world.. and a well trained armorer/rifle smith had it happen to him here in the USA...............


    In Dad's outfit in the Aleutians, during the fighting there, some men's Garands froze up ... they learned to completely degrease the rifles & to run them dry & had no more problems... When they were in Europe in 1944... he made sure the men of his company ran their rifles dry... and to get boots 1/2 size or 1 size big so that they could wear multiple pairs of warm wool socks & still have room for their feet to expand......Lessons leaned from earlier similar situations... prevents the same problems from arising.

    I'm glad Ted told of us of his fix for that problem... I love that old M1A...........
    be safe, enjoy life, journey well
    da gimp
    OFC, Mo. Chapter

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by da gimp View Post
    Dern Ted, I was just going to opine that this scenario would never arise in the real world.. and a well trained armorer/rifle smith had it happen to him here in the USA...............



    ...........

    Exactly, can it happen, yes, to that extent, no.
    liberum aeternum

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 5MadFarmers View Post
    Without seeing the video you really have no idea on the conditions or the test itself.

    First, the M16 and cleaning thing. Whether the M16 is used in the desert, Arctic, my basement, or Disney-world really doesn't change what's happening there: unless it's cleaned the powder residue from that direct impingement system is going to gum up the works eventually. It's an artefact of the design and the environment is really irrelevant as it's not foreign matter (sand) but matter from the system itself. So the M14 doesn't suffer from that but that's the result of having a piston versus skipping it.


    .
    Disney World, really, man you are sick, guns owners have enough problems without people like you putting that Sheet on a forum
    Last edited by StockDoc; 07-18-2015 at 08:23.
    liberum aeternum

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •