Random thoughts on religion...

[Allen]

I keep religion between me and my maker

+1

[Ken The Kanuck]

I am not smart enough to know God's thoughts, I will just try to be a good person and see how that works out.

[Art]

I'm glad we don't have a religion forum on here but I am going to chime in about two things.

1. Church leaders are subject to corruption just like anyone who has access to influence and money. Jesus said "The Scribes and the Pharisees and the Teachers of the Law sit in the seat of Moses so you must do what they say, but do not do what they do for they are corrupt."

2. We don't realize the influence of Judeo Christianity on Western Civilization whether you're a believer or not. I watched the old movie Spartacus today and they credited the abolition of slavery in Western Civilization to Christianity. In the anti Christian environment today that would never happen but its true. In ancient Israel when slavery is mentioned its almost always a form of indenture, paying off debt or binding oneself to a wealthier person voluntarily to insure eating regularly. In the Law of Moses trafficking in human beings was a capital offense and it is prohibited to return a runaway slave to its owner. In the "New Testament" it is explicitly stated that all people are equal to God, male or female, Jew or Greek, free or slave. So to God sex, race, ethnicity or "condition of servitude" are irrelivent. In fact in Timothy and Revelation "traffickers in human souls" (slave traders ) are in the list of gross sins. There is a short letter from Paul to a Christian in Greece named Philemon regarding a slave of the said Philemon who had run away and wound up with Paul. Paul sends him back and tells Philemon to remember that the slave is his brother. Well its a little hard to justify the slavery of your brother. In Rome this sort of thing was seditious talk because the Romans lived in constant fear of "servile insurrection."

Christianity is also responsible for hospitals, at least as we know them and universities. Before Christianity there were doctors but no medical institutions and higher education was being accepted as a student by a known teacher. In the Pagan world these were people like Plato or Aristotle in the Pagan world or Hillel or Gamiliel in Israel. Whether you're a believer or not Judeo Christianity deserves a tip of the hat for that alone.

[lyman]

great points Art,

another thing, besides hospitals,

the Crusades, as much as they like to be beaten upon in today's world, were the reason we had the Renaissance,

the Crusaders found , and pillaged, the libraries that were supposedly going to waste in the Muslim world, and brought the books and knowledge back with them,

[JOHN COOK]

I keep religion between me and my maker

Agree !!!

j.cook in SC

[Vern Humphrey]

I believe part of the dust up in the OP was the use of a church in The Vatican to host an Episcopal service. The Episcopalians and other Anglicans along with the Lutherans are sort of Catholic lite in that their services can look very Catholic from the outside. Anyhow, those Episcopalians didn't jump through the proper hoops and it caused a big blow up with the Catholics because the people who authorized this didn't have the authority to do it and if the people who did have the authority had been consulted it would have never happened.

The problem dates back to the Gnostics of the First century and a couple of hundred years later. They tried to hijack Christianity, claiming they had "secret" knowledge. Ireneus, the Bishop of Lugdunum (modern Lyons in France) defended orthodox Christianity. He contacted all the churches founded by Apostles and asked if their founding apostles had left them any secret knowledge, and they all replied that they had not.

Since then, the Church has emphasized the Apostolic Succession -- all valid bishops must be able to trace their ordination back to an Apostle. The Catholic, Orthodox and Nestorian Churches can do this, but the Episcopalians and Lutherans cannot.

It wasn't a matter of the Episcopalians "jumping through the proper hoops," it was lack of the Apostolic Succession that was objectionable.

[Art]

I guess I did not make myself clear, again. If the Episcopalians had gone through the proper channels they wouldn't have been given permission to have the service. The only reason the got there was because they didn't go through the proper channels.

[lyman]

Episcopalians are part of or derived from the Anglian Church, so in theory there would be no way to trace back any ordination,
but then again, it was started by Henry XIII, and technically an off shot of the Catholic Church,, correct?

[Vern Humphrey]

Episcopalians are part of or derived from the Anglian Church, so in theory there would be no way to trace back any ordination,
but then again, it was started by Henry XIII, and technically an off shot of the Catholic Church,, correct?

All Protestant churches are offshoots of the Catholic Church, or offshoots of an offshoot of the Catholic Church.

[Vern Humphrey]

I guess I did not make myself clear, again. If the Episcopalians had gone through the proper channels they wouldn't have been given permission to have the service. The only reason the got there was because they didn't go through the proper channels.

That's correct. The Catholic Church does not recognize Episcopalian or Anglican orders (ordinations.)