Serial Numbers

[nf1e]

Why am I reminded of two cats with their tails tied together and hung over a cloths line?

[cplnorton]

The day Niedner started his work at Philly, SA manufactured 648698, so we know that rifle, as well as any SN higher, can be eliminated from the Niedner rifles. Your 628116 was manufactured on or about 18 Aug 1916, and 620463 was manufactured on or about 11 Jan 1916. Now we know when they were finally shipped, but not the reason. What has that have to do with anything?

But you think you know what rifles are Niedner. You can't. There were 3 makers of the A5 Sniper rifle in the WWI era. The ones by Niedner, the ones by WRA, and the ones by the Marines at the Philadelphia Depot. The Majoirty of the Mann Niedners were bult at the Marine Philadelphia Depot starting very late 1918 and 1919. The Philly Depot never stopped building them either. They continued to build them until 1941, and possibly even as late as 1944. I have found no reliable way to tell what is a Niedner rifle, and what is a Mann Niedner built at the Philly Depot.

But I can prove 100% that Winchester never made a Mann Niedner variant.

[cplnorton]

You are grasping at straws because I believe you are finally realizing you are wrong.

By the way, you have a 300K series rifle you blatantly claim to be a Marine sniper rifle without one iota of provenance. It doesn't even have any characteristics of even being a Marine rifle. Yet you are disturbed by sequential numbers of a tightly grouped set of rifles. My, my.

Winchester created their version of the A5 Sniper that they called the Marine Mount in April/May 1917. They did not have a 7.2'' spacing blocks for the M1903 prior to that date. There are pics of a 2 test pattern rifles and one complete 03 rifle with their 7.2'' spacing Marine Mount in the WRA files.

The serials of these rifles in the Winchester WWI files are:

34215
367312
659062

My rifle is 368496. It is a little over a 1000 digits from the rifle pictured in the WWI Winchester files.

My rifle was built in 1909, the most famous pic of a Winchester Marine mount A5 taken in 1917 in France is also a pre-1910 rifle. You can tell by the traits of the rifle.

There are 2 pictures of this rifle taken in France in 1917.



I made a high definition copy of the original glass slide so I could really tell the details of the rifle. It is a pre 1910 rifle by the traits, as is mine.




My 1909 rifle vs the pre 1910 rifle taken in France.




My rifle compared to serial 659062 in the WWI Winchester files.




There are also more of these rifles that fall into the serial ranges you believe are exclusive to Mann Nienders. These are in a very advanced Sniper Collectors hands, and I will not name him. But these are in the 672,xxx and 678,xxx serial ranges. These rifles are identical to mine, and also the pics of the rifles in the WWI Winchester files.










64

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Why am I reminded of two cats with their tails tied together and hung over a cloths line?

That's funny.

[cplnorton]

By the way, I saw your post on CMP where you compare it to LaValley's rifle and make the silly claim that if you had an Optical Ray Filter, your old 300K rifle would be identical to LaValley's. You didn't even notice the absence of a Grasshopper on Lavalley's Modified Marie Mount rifle on Niedner type taper bases. Now that has got to be a bit embarrassing. I have told you, and told you, you cannot use a side view photo comparison to prove anything. Pay attention.

As in any court trial, it is the totality of the evidence that counts. You lose.

You claim this rifle is a Mann Niedner. But it's actually the variant produced by WRA during the War.



When you compare a regular A5 scope to the Mann Niedner tapered block Conversion you notice the Mann Niedner has a screw on the outside of the micrometer. The regular A5 has a hole that produces a shadow.




Now look at the pic you claim is a Mann Niender again. IT's a hole with a shadow in the micrometer, which the Mann Niedner doesn't have. Also his handguard is the WRA style as the Mann Niedner needs a handguard that is cut much more as the block slides on from the back.




My rifle compared to the one you claim it's a Mann Niedner. It looks nothing like a Mann Niedner and when you compare it to another one made by Winchester they are actually identical. It's the same type WRA built Marine mount A5, exactly like mine and the one pictured in France in 1917.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Winchester created their version of the A5 Sniper that they called the Marine Mount in April/May 1917. They did not have a 7.2'' spacing blocks for the M1903 prior to that date.

The Marine rifle team was using scopes as early as 1909. You think they didn't figure out the advantages of 7.2" spacing until 1917? Of all your bizarre claims, this one takes the prize for being ridiculous.

There are pics of a 2 test pattern rifles and one complete 03 rifle with their 7.2'' spacing Marine Mount in the WRA files.

The serials of these rifles in the Winchester WWI files are:

34215
367312
659062

Those three rifles are clearly labeled as Army rifles, not Marine. I posted their "complete" photos, including their labels, in a previous post. There was no mention of "test pattern" on any of them.

My rifle is 368496. It is a little over a 1000 digits from the rifle pictured in the WWI Winchester files.

So? According to you, the relative position of serial numbers means nothing. Remember?

My rifle was built in 1909, the most famous pic of a Winchester Marine mount A5 taken in 1917 in France is also a pre-1910 rifle. You can tell by the traits of the rifle.

And your rifle has 7.2" spacing, doesn't it? You really believe someone waited 9 years to mount that scope? You are getting desperate.

It could be a replacement stock. Who knows? You can't tell anything from that single picture. That's my point.

There are also more of these rifles that fall into the serial ranges you believe are exclusive to Mann Nienders. These are in a very advanced Sniper Collectors hands, and I will not name him. But these are in the 672,xxx and 678,xxx serial ranges. These rifles are identical to mine, and also the pics of the rifles in the WWI Winchester files.

Those bases look a bit low for "Springfield Marine" bases, but I readily admit I can't tell for sure. Can any of any readers tell for sure?

Neither can you, Norton, as evidenced by your mistaking LaValley's rifle with taper bases for a rifle with "Springfield Marine" bases. You obviously haven't noticed there is no grasshopper on LaValley's rifle mount. It's a Marine Mount with taper bases.

Nortons CMP Post - Annotated 2.jpg

Let's give it a rest, Norton. You continue to derail my threads with the same old lame claims, long proven false.

[lyman]

guys

I am going to reopen this thread to allow continued discussion,


what I am not going to tolerate, is anything other than discussions


keep it on the rails, in between the ditches or in other words civil,


disagreement often bring better discussions and proof of concept or thesis, or theory or (insert whatever here)

same ole lame claims and suck comments make the users of this forum skim and move on, and make the person making such comments look petty,



do we have an understanding?




that is rhetorical, btw,

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I appreciate, and agree, with what you are saying, Lyman; but I believe we have covered all pertinent ground on this one.

[cplnorton]

Yep totally agree Lyman. Thank you for opening it back up. I still have more to say on this topic.

The Marine rifle team was using scopes as early as 1909. You think they didn't figure out the advantages of 7.2" spacing until 1917? Of all your bizarre claims, this one takes the prize for being ridiculous.

Winchester only had the 6'' spacing until 1917. In 1917 is when Winchester created the 7.2'' spacing for their M1903 rifle. Because the Marines used it first it earned the nickname "Marine."

Those three rifles are clearly labeled as Army rifles, not Marine. I posted their "complete" photos, including their labels, in a previous post. There was no mention of "test pattern" on any of them.

These rifles are not labeled Army or Marines as Jim claims. This is not correct. But it would not matter even if they were labeled Army. There is NOT any difference between the rifles provided that Winchester made for the Marines and Army. The rifles for both branches are identical in everyway.

So? According to you, the relative position of serial numbers means nothing. Remember?

No serial ranges are important to this study, but Jim claims you can know a Mann Niedner and WRA rifle just by the serial number. This is not correct.

And your rifle has 7.2" spacing, doesn't it? You really believe someone waited 9 years to mount that scope? You are getting desperate.

I found serial 639,6xx was made into a sniper in 1940. It waited 23 years to become a sniper. So yes. Rifles sat in storage at Depots all the time and were taken out years and decades later to be used. This happened all the time.

It could be a replacement stock. Who knows? You can't tell anything from that single picture. That's my point.

The highwood stock, and handguard both predate 1910. The small windage knob on the rear sight is also a pre 1910. So the chances the stock, the handguard, and the small dished windage knob were all changed to a pre 1910, is not likely at all.

[cplnorton]

Besides the fact that the Micrometers on the rifle that Jim is claiming is Mann Niedner are wrong. The handguard in the pic is also not a Mann Niender handguard as well.

The Mann Niedner scope is attached from behind the rear of the block, because it's a wedge shape that locks under recoil. So a tapered block is mounted from the rear. So the wood behind the block on a Mann Niender tapered design has to have a large amount of wood removed.

The mounting system made by Winchester and called the Marine Mount by WRA, actually mounted from the front, so there was no need to remove the wood behind the base.

These are original pics, top is from the Marine Sniper files of a Mann Niedner tapered base mounting system. The bottom pic is straight from Winchester in their WWI files and is serial 659,062

Notice how they had to remove the wood in the area I circled in RED on the Mann Niedner handguard.



Now these are actual pics of Mann Niender Handguards taken in Sniper School at Quantico in the WWI era. Notice again how much wood is removed on these handgaurds.




Now look at the pic Jim posted claiming it is a Mann Niedner. Notice how the wood is not missing? That is because this scope is mounting from the front, not the rear.




This rifle is not a Mann Niender. The micrometers on the scope and handguard are both wrong.