Serial Numbers

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Yes Niedner used 7' 2'' spacing in 1916. But Winchester never made ANY 7' 2'' spacing blocks for the 1903 until 1917. Jim keeps on trying to twist that I said WRA created 7' 2'' spacing. But I keep saying Winchester was only using 6'' spacing on 1903's until early 1917. In March/April 1917 WRA created new blocks for the M1903 that would give the A5 scope 7' 2'' spacing. It just earned the nickname "Marine" because the Marines used it first. Exactly like how the #10 sights earned the nickname as "Marine" in 1919.

Steve DID say that WRA created the 7.2" spacing. This is the same old nonsense we have discussed more than once. Steve has no way to prove any part of what he is saying. Just how do you know WRA never made a base for 7.2" spacing until 1917? You can not convince me that such a document exists. Same for the "Marines used it first". How could you possibly know that? You are guessing because it fits what you want to be true. That is the antithesis of research.

Every M1903 in that era was called an US Army M1903, no matter if it was property of the US Army, Marines, or Navy. That is because that was the official name of the rifle. Look at the M1911's sent to the Marines. The slides are marked "Model of 1911 US Army." The M1911's did not say "Model of US Marines." This is the exact same thing on the M1903. They did not call a 1903 a "US Marine Bolt Action (Model of 1903)" just because the Marines owned a rifle.

Nonsense. They were called the M1903 Springfield rifle, just as they are now.

I never said 639,6xx was a Mann Niedner. This is why his serial ranges are in error. Jim automatically assumes just bc that serial is in the 600k range it has to be a Mann Niedner It was not. It was actually an experimental Marine Sniper rifle for testing, and not even remotely close to the Mann Niedner.

You are just as confused as ever, Norton. You need to learn to interpret that which you read. I never said any such thing. In the Niedner serial number range I noted, are over 20,000 rifles. Are you seriously trying to convince the readers that I believe there were 20,000 Niedner rifles? I don't think anyone is going to believe you, Norton. You are back to making wild accusations again. Nappy time.

I have posted docs for 7 years that show the Army bought Winchester "Marine Mount" A5's in 1918. I also posted the docs where the Army was in desperate need for the clamping screws (thumb Screws) for their A5's, a couple months later, which the Mann Niedner never had. Jim is the one who has NEVER posted one Winchester document that says Winchester made the tapered base design.

Point 1: I never said who made the taper blocks, I said WRA mounted the Marine Mount with taper bases on rifles supplied by the Marines. I don't care who made them.

But that is becaue all the docs you can find say the Marines are the ones who created the tapered block Mann Niedner design.

Point 2: Exactly which "docs" would those be, Norton? I have never referenced such "docs", and I actually think Niedner originated the short taper block design.

Point 3: A "doc" stating the Army was in desperate need of clamping screws has nothing to do with their order of sniper rifles "just like the Marines". The Army had over 1,000,000 soldiers in France, with about half of those on the front lines. Do you think those 500 sniper rifles "just like the Marine's" covered all their needs? The Army had many, many hundreds of sniper rifles with scopes on thumbscrew mounts. I have no doubt they had a serious problem with lost thumbscrews, an issue avoided by the Marines when they ordered their rifles with Niedner type taper bases. Is that too much for you to grasp?

This is a article by Harry L. Smith in 1925. He was one of the most famous Marine shooters and experts on the M1903 of the WWI era. He was heavily involved with the rifle team, before the war, during the war, and after. He was also involved in the sniper program, and also was one of the lead experts always referenced in the Marine docs for the Philadelphia Depot. I see his name everywhere back then. HE said the Philadelphia depot created the Marine tapered block (Mann Niedner) design. I shortened it so it wasn't 4 pages.

Major H. L. Smith was indeed a remarkable man. As for the sniper program, I think you are confusing him with Major Daulty Smith, who ran the OSD SOS School (sniper school). That doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is that you think "Telescope sight bases, known as the taper block Marine Corps type, were developed and are made at the depot" can be interpreted as saying the Marine Corps taper block was created at the depot - it does not. You are seriously confused.

All along you have been saying the Marines were making the taper bases during the war, when Major H. L. Smith specifically states that section was created after the war under the direction of our old friend Douglas McDougal, the man who placed the 2nd WRA Order. You just posted what I have been trying to tell you for years!

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This is from the Army 1923 Sniper Rifle trials. Again it says the Marines manufactured the tapered block Mann Niedners. The Army still had their "Marine Mounts" they bought of Winchester too. The Army didn't get rid of their Marine Mount A5's till the late 20's. So if WRA built the Mann Niedner, why is the Army saying the Marines built them?

Any decent machinist could make the taper bases. I have no doubt the Marines made them, as well as Niedner and WRA. What is your point?

These are only two docs, I have built up thousands of docs that all state the same things I keep on saying.

A
No they don't. That is the problem. I am now convinced, more than ever, you manufactured this whole "Springfield Marine" sniper rifle scenario based on flawed interpretation of unconnected documents.

Now on the flip side, no one has ever produce any WRA documents that state they built a TAPERED block for the Army or the Marines. Winchester made bases that were nicknamed "Marine" but they were not a tapered design.

So what? You can't produce a document that specifically states WRA made the "Springfield Marine" bases. All you have is a 1926 WRA drawing that depicts a "Springfield Marine" set of bases. I realize you go to great lengths to divert the discussion from the true subject - who mounted the Marine Mounts with taper bases for the two WRA orders placed by the Marines? Without doubt, and despite your strangely odd attempts to connect various documents that do not say what you claim they say, you have produced nothing that disputes that claim.

As for your continued attempts to convince people that Sgt LaValley's rifle and scope used "Springfield Marine" bases, LaValley's scope and case are owned by retired Major Jim Land, of Vietnam sniper school fame, and former Secretary of the NRA. Try convincing him his scope doesn't have Niedner type taper bases. Good luck with that one.

This is a good time to end this discussion, and my thread.

[cplnorton]

As for your continued attempts to convince people that Sgt LaValley's rifle and scope used "Springfield Marine" bases, LaValley's scope and case are owned by retired Major Jim Land, of Vietnam sniper school fame, and former Secretary of the NRA. Try convincing him his scope doesn't have Niedner type taper bases. Good luck with that one.

Jim the story on this picture has changed a couple times. First you said the rifle exists, and now it's just the case with the serial number on it? Well if it's only the case with the serial, how do you know the scope that is in it, is the exact same scope that was in it back in WWI? It might have had four scopes in it since then. The Marines used these scope cases and the Mann Niedner Sniper Rifles until the end of WWII.

I have never personally reached out to Jim Land. I never really had a reason too. But I told you the collectors of Sniper Rifles are a VERY small group and we all know each other. If I don't know someone, I know for a fact I know someone who knows that person to ask. I have a friend who is best friends with Jim Land, and we will see what Jim Land has to say on this topic. I know you once before had dropped Jim Land's name in an argument we had in 2016, claiming he told you some information we were arguing. So I had my friend ask Jim Land if he knew you. He said he did not.

So lets see what Jim Land says this time on this case.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Jim the story on this picture has changed a couple times. First you said the rifle exists, and now it's just the case with the serial number on it? Well if it's only the case with the serial, how do you know the scope that is in it, is the exact same scope that was in it back in WWI? It might have had four scopes in it since then. The Marines used these scope cases and the Mann Niedner Sniper Rifles until the end of WWII.

Show us where I said only the scope and case exists. Nothing has changed, you just need to learn to comprehend what you read.

I have never personally reached out to Jim Land. I never really had a reason too. But I told you the collectors of Sniper Rifles are a VERY small group and we all know each other. If I don't know someone, I know for a fact I know someone who knows that person to ask. I have a friend who is best friends with Jim Land, and we will see what Jim Land has to say on this topic. I know you once before had dropped Jim Land's name in an argument we had in 2016, claiming he told you some information we were arguing. So I had my friend ask Jim Land if he knew you. He said he did not.

I was with Jim when he bought that scope and case. Your friend is lying, or you are.

So lets see what Jim Land says this time on this case.

I doubt you would post it.