Named Scope Cases

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

By now, most of you know that Norton and I disagree on which bases were used when assembling the WWI Marine sniper rifles. Disagreement is healthy, as the end result is typically a better perspective of any issue. You can read Norton’s version here:

https://winchestercollector.org/foru...er-rifles-wwi/

Pay particular attention to the documents Mr. Norton claims proves the Marine sniper rifles had "Springfield Marine" bases. I have read and re-read these documents, and nowhere in any of them does it say the Marines ordered "Springfield Marine" bases for their rifles. Please judge for yourself.

I am going to present an alternative path to determining what bases were on these rifles. There were three Marine orders for scopes to be mounted on '03 Springfield’s the Marines supplied. The first order was for A. O. Niedner to install scopes on 1500 rifles. But the 5^th Regiment was to muster in Philly in June, so Major Holcomb needed enough scoped rifles to equip the 5^th before they departed for France. Major McDougal and Major Daulty Smith contracted with Niedner to scope 150 rifles at Philly for that purpose. Niedner installed the scopes with modified mounts and Niedner taper bases on 150 rifles and went on vacation. Unfortunately for Niedner, he was investigated for making treasonous statements, and that ended his involvement with the Marines. Subsequently, two orders were placed with WRA to mount scopes on a total of 750 rifles, with all 750 rifles being delivered to the Marines by 22 Oct 17.

No document exists that details the type of scope bases installed by WRA, other than comments such as "as approved by Holcomb" or "special Marine mounting" or "Marine Standard Mount". Thus the task at hand is to determine, by alternate means, exactly which bases were ordered. Holcomb approved modified #2 mounts and Niedner taper bases for the Niedner rifles. If the 500 rifle order from WRA were to be as approved by Holcomb, they had to be Marine Mounts with Niedner tapered bases, as there was no reason, or advantage, to change to a substandard OEM WRA #2 mount with thumbscrew "Springfield Marine" bases he and others had been replacing on rifle team rifles from as far back as 1916.

I first looked at the available documentation, which was limited at the time. Thanks to Smokeeaterpilot, there are plenty of documents available now. Since I could find no document detailing which bases were ordered, I looked closely at what accessories were ordered by both the Marines and the Army in their orders for sniper rifles "just like the Marines". It was what was not listed as replacement parts and tools that stood out. No thumbscrews were ordered with the rifles even though it was well known that the thumbscrews were easily lost, which made the rifle useless as a scoped sniper rifle. They weren't included in the order because the scope mounts had no thumbscrews.

I decided to look at the one item that exists, to any degree, today. The existing named scope cases and their scopes. These are the issued sniper scope cases that the sniper adorned with his name and matching rifle serial number. The scopes still have their mounts intact, which indicates which bases were installed.

We have all seen these scopes and cases on eBay, gun shows, and auction sites. I have owned three of them myself. I sold two of them, regrettably. I noticed that many of the scope cases being sold were emblazoned with the original sniper’s name and the sniper rifle’s serial number. I began to collect all the data I could find on the scope cases, including pictures. I traced each of the snipers, from the scope case names, through their Marine military careers using the Marine Muster Rolls on Ancestry.com. I discovered they all congregated at two locations at the same time. One location was OSD, which I expected. The second location was Guantanamo Bay, Cuba (GITMO), which I had not expected. I also noticed that the GITMO Commanding Officer was none other than Maj. Garland Fay, the fabled Captain of the 1916 Marine Rifle Team, considered by many as one of the finest teams ever assembled. The rest of the search was a long period of searching for the reason all those snipers were gathering at GITMO. I quickly found the following article.

The prospective snipers being gleaned from the Caribbean were making a stopover at Guant?namo. After much searching, I discovered that Major Fay had started a sniper school at Deer Point, Cuba, location of the GITMO rifle range.


The Cuban Connection - Annotated.jpgI also unearthed a plan by four Marine rifle team members to design the best sniper rifle possible, and start a sniper school at GITMO that would be used to recruit expert riflemen from the Caribbean Marines to be snipers. Since OSD wasn?t opening until June 1918, Major Fay started a sniper school at GITMO in March 1918. Fay was training snipers while waiting for the proposed OSD Scout-Observer-Sniper School to open its doors. Oddly enough, this can be proven using a sniper’s death roll.

Excerpt from WW Ipson's Death Certificate - Annotated.jpg

Pvt. Ipson was at Deer Point during the period 27 Mar 18 to 29 April 18 and L. A. Clapp was a Marine rifle team coach also at GITMO. Pvt. Ipson received his sniper training at GITMO under Major Fay. Leslie LaValley's diary gives day to day records of the training from the day of initial issue of the sniper rifles, which was 4 Mar 18.

All intriguing, but this post is about the scope cases, the scopes, and their serial numbers. I have accumulated a substantial list of known snipers and their rifle serial numbers, about half from scope cases, with the rest from other sources such as museums, archives, and various books and documents. The serial numbers form three groups, the last two groupings being less distinct than the first. The first grouping of serial numbers roughly covers 610,000 to 625,000. These are thought to be the Niedner scoped rifles. The second group is from 638,000 to 662,000, and is believed to be the 1^st WRA order for 500 rifles to be scoped. The third group is loosely defined as 670,000 to 695,000, and is believed to be the 2^nd WRA order for 250 rifles to be scoped by WRA ordered by Major McDougal.

The interesting part of the named scope cases is that they all contained scopes fitted with Marine Mounts for Niedner taper bases. I did see one scope case on eBay that contained a scope with #2 mounts with ?Springfield Marine? thumbscrew type bases. Its micro-dial graduations were painted white, which means the scope was made after 1926; so that case was not included in the count.

Using the Marine Muster Rolls, I tracked every named scope case sniper back to either Gitmo, OSD, or both. It really wasn't necessary, as I only needed to verify one sniper rifle issued that day as having Niedner taper bases. If one rifle had them, they all had them. Anyone who has been in the Marine Corps can tell you that in the Marines, everything is exactly alike down to your skivys. I suspect they don't have Short Arm Inspections anymore in the new Marine Corps, but in my day it was a pretty regular occurrence. Well, I got caught not wearing skivys during a Short Arm Inspection at Camp Margarita. I was severely punished. If you have never spit shined a filthy trash can, you haven't lived. If you have never stood at attention on the parade deck at Camp Margarita with your Johnson swaying in the breeze, you haven't lived. Back to business.

From LaValley?s diary, I knew he was issued a sniper rifle, scope and case on 4 Mar 18 at GITMO. I located his relatives, specifically his son, Jim LaValley, now deceased. LaValley's scope and case had become available for sale, and a friend of mine wanted to buy it. Jim had sold his dad’s scope and case, but he was able to confirm the scope and case for sale was indeed his dad's. That scope had Niedner taper bases. The rifles issued on 4 Mar 18 had Niedner taper bases, not thumbscrew #2 mounts with "Springfield Marine" bases as claimed by some confused individuals.

I am going to post pictures of some of the named scope cases along with the names of the sniper to whom it was issued. All of these scope cases contained scopes with Niedner taper bases - no exceptions. I am going to post only ten cases, because it is a pain in the rear to set them up for posting, as I am no computer geek.

Let us begin.

1. Sgt. Leslie D. LaValley - Rifle was issued on 4 Mar 18 at Deer Point, Cuba by Major Fay when LaValley gave up his promotion to Corporal to be a sniper. Snipers were Privates. LaValley became a sniper Instructor at OSD before he went to France with the 11^th Regiment.

LaValley Scope Case - Annotated.jpg
The serial number of LaValley's rifle places it in the second group, which is believed to be the 500 rifle order Major Holcomb placed with WRA, for riflles with Marine Mounts and taper bases "as approved by Holcomb". Holcomb would become Commander of the 2/6, and Major Douglas McDougal would assume his position as Inspector of Target Practice.

1. Gunner Steve Estock - Rifle was issued on 4 Mar 18 at Deer Point, Cuba by Major Fay. Gunner Estock would later become an officer after attending OSD’s Officer Candidate School, as well as being an Instructor at the S-O-S School. Estock was from Alabama, and lived near my hometown, but I never knew him. Note the film inside the cap that has elevation data for the rifle. Not all the cases had this film.

Estock Scope Case - Annotated.jpg

1. Pvt. William W. Ipson - Rifle was issued on 4 Mar 18. Ipson would later die of pneumonia in France. Ipson received his sniper training at Deer Point, Cuba in the first class. Ipson's death certificate conclusively indicates that there was indeed a sniper school at Deer Point, Cuba as shown above. The serial number of Ipson's sniper rifle places it in the second group of the WRA order for 500 rifles to be scoped. The scope has Niedner taper bases.

Pvt. WW Ipson's Scope Case - Annotated.jpg


I ave reached my pic limit - next post.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

1. Pvt. Max Brunstein - This rifle is part of a matched set. The collector, one of the nicest guys I met, owns the rifle, scope, and case of Max Brunstein. The serial number of the rifle places it in the second group or the 500 rifle order from WRA. I have photos of the rifle, scope and case, and the rear Niedner taper base has "wings" that obscure the serial number. The serial number is stamped into the stock just in front of the single rear crossbolt, which indicates the rifle retains its original stock. It is one of three matched sets I found owned by collectors. Except for the serial number, the rifles of all three sets are identical in every respect, and the scopes have the Marine Mounts with modified #2 mounts on taper bases. Please note that the third group, or the 250 rifle WRA order, consists of rifles without wings. WRA corrected their mistake.

Max Bruinstein's Scope Case-Annotated-JT.jpg

1. Cpl. Melvin H. VanCamp - This rifle is in the second group, and it was part of the 500 rifle WRA order. VanCamp was in M Co, 3^rd Bat, 13^th Regiment. This is one of several cases that has two serial numbers written on it. I used the serial number in the cap.

M H VanCamp Scope Case Inner Lid - Annotated Black Out.jpg

1. Cpl. Thomas A. Stuckey - This rifle is in the second group which is the 500 rifle order from WRA. The serial number is written on the side of the case.

Scope Case of Pvt. Thomas A. Stuckey-Annotated-JT.jpg

1. Pvt. John E. Kennedy - The rifle was issued on 4 Mar 18, and was a Niedner rifle, and has the second lowest serial number I found on a scope case. The writing was unreadable under ordinary light. Alternative Lighting (AL) was used to make the writing visible. This was done from a photograph. Ain't that cool?

Alternative Lighting_Annotated_Black Out.jpg

1. Pvt. H. S. Smith - This rifle has the lowest serial number I found on a named scope case, and it is definitely a Niedner rifle. The odd part is that Pvt. Smith didn't get to GITMO until mid-May of 1918, so the rifles were definitely not issued in order of serial number.

BTW, all these scope cases are of the 8-loop "Penguin" variety. I did locate two 6-loop cases whose serial numbers placed them in the third group of 250 rifles ordered from WRA by Major McDougal.

Pvt. Harry S. Smith's A5 Scope Case - Annotated Black Out.jpg


I reached my pic limit - on to next post.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

9. Pvt. Gilbert C. Chandler - This one is from page 12 of Senich's book. Pvt. Chandler would become Lt. Chandler before he left OSD. The relatively high serial number places this rifle squarely in the third group of the 250 rifles ordered from WRA by McDougal. I am ripping this photo straight from Senich's book. I hope he doesn't mind.

GC Chandler Scope Case Inner Lid - Annotated Black Out.jpg

1. Pvt. Frank H. Sweet - This is the one I have been waiting for. It is 3:40 am, and I am sleepy and Boo is snoring. I wanted to give equal space to the other camp that believes all the cases were 6-loop cases. This is one of only two I found. I didn't take this picture, but I put a watermark on it just for fun. This is a scope and case I wish I owned. The owner is a friend, but might not be after he sees my watermark on his picture! As can be seen, this scope has Niedner taper base receptacles and Marine Mounts.

Black 6-Loop Win A5 Scope Case w_Marine Mount Scope w_MN Base - Annotated.jpg


If you are not convinced by now that all the Marine sniper rifles had Niedner taper bases, I am truly disappointed in my presentation. I have a bunch more of these named scope cases, including another beautiful matched set owned by a prominent collector. What I didn't find in my long arduous search was a single named scope case with a scope that had WRA #2 mounts with thumbscrew "Springfield Marine" bases. Gee, I wonder why?

Good night, all.

[cplnorton]

I will not argue this out, but I will post one thing. Because this is beating a dead horse.

When the Marines and Army ordered the Marine Mount A5's off Winchester, they did not order spare Thumbscrews on their initial contracts. This would cause a lot of problems later as they were lost in the field, especially in the AEF.

First Winchester did not call them thumbscrews in WWI. They actually called them "Clamp Screws."

So because the initial contracts did not have spare clamp screws (thumbscrews), many of the A5 scopes lost them and became unserviceable. So Supply became desperate to order replacement Clamp Screws (thumbscrews) off Winchester.

In the end Winchester sends 500 clamp screws (thumbscrews) for the Marine Mount A5's scopes to Ordnance. Because neither branch ordered them on the first initial contracts.

First the Army ordering Marine Mount A5's made by Winchester.



This is only one page of many from this whole series of documents where Ordnance was desperately seeking Clamp Screws (thumbscrews) for their Marine mount A5's. There is a lot more to this that Andrew nor myself have ever made public.



If you have any argument that a clamp screw was not a thumbscrew, it spells it out clearly here that it was.

[cplnorton]

Andrew and myself have pulled thousands of pages of unpublished WWI Sniper docs from the National Archives. For every one doc we post, there are thousands more we aren't posting. No one has ever seen any of these docs, that is why I keep on politely trying to tell Jim there is a substantial amount of research he has not seen.

It is extremely clear in the actual sniper docs there were two completely different styles of A5 Sniper rifles. Both had the nickname of Marine, which has confused researchers ever since. But once you get the WRA, Marine, and Army docs together it's very clear that the Marine mount made by Winchester had clamping screws (thumbscrews). The one made by the Marine Philly Depot had a tapered base without clamping screws (the Mann Niedner).

Two completely different scope mounting systems, both nicknamed Marine, both ran at the same time. It's simple as that.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

What am I missing here? Respectfully, neither of those documents states that the Army ordered rifles scoped with A5 scopes with "Springfield Marine" bases, and the order for missing thumbscrews was for rifles the Army already possessed (they had to have time to lose the thumbscrews). If this is the basis for your claiming the Marines ordered rifles with thumbscrew bases, your research is seriously flawed. The Army started issuing scoped rifles to soldiers in 1903 or 1904. They must have had many hundreds of A5 scoped rifles on WRA bases by 1918. The "Springfield Marine" base is the commercial WRA base for 7.2" spacing. There is nothing "special" about it. Anyone ordering a scope mounted on their '03 by WRA on 7.2" spacing would get the "Springfield Marine" base. The "Standard Marine Corps mounting" was the Niedner taper based modified mounts. You have been guessing all this time.

Pulling a ton of documents doesn't mean squat unless you can find one that proves your point. If you have one that does so, post the thing.

I was aware of the WRA name for the thumbscrews (look at my posts), but the readers probably understand thumbscrews better. I will continue to call them thumbscrews.

I hope you are having a nice day.

[cplnorton]

Unfortunately nothing of what Jim just posted is correct. The Army did not have A5 Sniper rifles prior to their first order in January 1918, other than a handful tested in 1914. The Army hated the A5 scope as a sniper scope and only ordered them because it was a last resort.

This topic is seriously a dead horse. The only reason I am even posting this much is so the reader knows he needs to study this past what Jim is saying and come to his own conclusions.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

This excerpt was taken from the 1904 Army Small Arms Firing Regulations. It verifies that the Army was issuing scoped rifles to soldiers since 1904, which pre-dates the A5 scope. When the A5 became available, their rifle teams surely used A5 scoped rifles, because the Marines, and others, were using scopes in matches at least as early as 1908, when Daulty Smith won the Nationals with a scoped rifle, not an A5. I have never seen an Army rifle team with Warner-Swasey scopes. That doesn't mean they didn't exist, just that I have never seen one.

My point is that the Army must have had a plethora of A5 scoped rifles by 1918. The A5 was the best scope of its day. It would be difficult to grasp the idea that the numerous National Guard and Army rifle teams would ignore the A5. But I will admit, I have no irrefutable evidence one way or the other.

When I first found this, I was surprised. I wonder what scopes the Army used, or for that matter, what scope Daulty Smith used. I have to constantly remind myself that my search is for 150 serial numbers so I don't get sidetracked from my original venture. I made a living for ten years researching the bacteria that is responsible for farts to burn. I am not kidding. I mentioned this to Michael Petrov during a phone conversation many years ago, and after he finally quit laughing, he asked me to put my skills to use in finding the serial numbers of the 150 Niedner rifles. I figured it would take me a few weeks at most. I am still looking.

1904 Firing Regulations - Annotated.jpg

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

... The Army did not have A5 Sniper rifles prior to their first order in January 1918, other than a handful tested in 1914. The Army hated the A5 scope as a sniper scope and only ordered them because it was a last resort....

How could you possibly know this?

[lyman]

during that time frame was the Army using Warner Swasey scopes?