Did the Marines use Rifle Team Rifles as Sniper Rifles in WWI?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Did the Marines take Marine rifle team rifles with them to France? This has been an enduring myth for a very long time, and is presented as fact by present day factions.

Four men were responsible for the Marine sniper program in WWI (more on this in future posts). They carefully formulated a precise plan to equip the Marines with the best sniper rifle possible with the equipment available. The planning began before America joined the war. These four Marine officers knew that the proposed Overseas Depot (OSD) to be built at Quantico would have a school to train Sniper-Observer-Scout's. They also knew the 4^th Brigade Marines would be in France long before OSD opened their doors, so they devised a plan to quickly equip the 4^th Brigade with their idea of the ideal sniper rifle before the 5^th Marine Regiment left the US for France.

It is common knowledge that A. O. Niedner was hired by the Marine Corps to install Winchester A5 scopes on 150 new 1903 rifles, with the work being done at the Philadelphia Depot. Have you ever wondered why the Philadelphia Depot was chosen as the assembly site, since it was so far away from Niedner's shop? It wasn't a coincidence. It was because the 5^th Marine Regiment was to be mustered in Philadelphia in June of 1917. Simply put, the 5^th Regiment was being issued their clothing and 782 gear at the Philly Depot, which was the supply depot for the Marines, as well as the fact that Philadelphia had a deep water port (explained in future post). It was much easier to send Marines to Philly, than to ship all the equipment to another location. Since the rifles were finished long before their departure, the Depot just handed them over to the 5th.

Let's examine the time frame of Niedner's work. We know from the FBI investigation of Niedner that Niedner performed his task in May and June of 1917 (excerpt from page 3 below). We know from Niedner's Receipts Receivable Book that he finished the work on June 1^st, or before, (copy of book courtesy of Michael Petrov). We know from historical fact that the Marines departed for France from Philadelphia on 16 June 1917. It doesn't require a mental giant to realize that the 150 sniper rifles, or a portion thereof, were handed over to the 5^th Marine Regiment long before they departed, just as was carefully planned by the men who gave Niedner the task, Maj. Douglas McDougal, Capt. Daulty Smith, Maj. Garland Fay, and Maj. Thomas Holcomb. Maj. Holcomb was the reigning Inspector of Target Practice. The Inspector of Target Practice answered directly to the Commandant, and despite its weird name, gave the Inspector absolute control of all phases of gunnery, including sniper rifles. More on these men and their plans in future posts.

The allotment of sniper rifles for the 5th Regiment was but a fraction of the 150 rifles. I will show where the rest went in a subsequent post. I believe the 5th received 90 of the 150 rifles, which is indicated by Pershing's future demand that the 5th hand over 90 sniper rifles to AEF Ordnance and a British sniper school at Langres, where American soldiers and Marines were trained as snipers. I don't think Pershing pulled that number from a hat, especially since it exceeded the Marine's allotment.

What do you think? Did the Marines send a bunch of logistical nightmare, mismatched rifle team rifles to France, or the finest sniper rifles the world had ever seen to that day? If you choose the former, you know nothing about Thomas Holcomb, the most anal retentive, dedicated rifle team shooter, and perfectionist the Marines ever recruited. Holcomb knew he was going to be in combat with those rifles as Commander of the 2/6, and there was no way he was going to accept less than perfection.

Neidner FBI Report - Page 3 - Annotated.jpgDate Niedner Finished Mounting the 150 Rifles - Annotated.jpg

[Major Tom]

I don't know about Marine sniper 'teams'. Germany had the best 2 man sniper teams at the time. They trained together. One man was the observer. The sniper used a 'Mauser' rifle with quality German optics. Britain on the other hand were at first using 'sporter rifles' paid for out of pocket by commanders. Scopes were a luxury there fore iron sights were common. German snipers could hit their target any where from 500-900 meters. British were maxed out at 300-400 meters. U.S. snipers used a variety of weapons and optics, some quite hilarious!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Howdy, Tom. The Marines of the 4th Brigade were crack shots. They stopped a crack German assault at 800 yards at Le Mare Farm on 5 June 18. From everything I have read, particularly medal citations, I got the distinct impression that Marine snipers acted alone. Pershing envisioned two-man teams, one rifle. They were to take turns as spotter and sniper to minimize eye strain. It may not have worked out that way with the Marines. Marines adapted to combat situation requirements. OSD trained Scouts, Observers, and Snipers (SOS). Fay concentrated on sniping at Deer Point. In France, the Marine Battalion Intelligence Officer (BIO)was responsible for recon. All SOS reported to him. I have found no After Action Reports that detail how the BIO's ran their details. The Marines never got mired down into trench warfare, and they adopted "Indian tactics" after 6 June 1918.

[Major Tom]

I had a co-worker friend many years ago who was a Marine sniper in 'Nam. He has since passed, his widow told me he was a sniper. He NEVER talked about his service. He was mentally messed up tho! But, he was a good friend!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

It was a strange war. When I first got back, I slept in the backyard of my mother's house because she said my hypervigilance made her nervous. I wouldn't discuss my experiences with anyone, even fellow vets. Still don't, but I have improved a bit.

[cplnorton]

I know this post is a dig on me, and a rifle I have posted research on.

But the short answer is the Marine rifle team only had a couple A5 scoped rifles, and it's unclear if they were property of the Marines, or just the individual Marine shooter. The Marines really didn't really acquire the A5 scope in number till the start of WWI. I'm not sure where the misconception that the Marine rifle team even had A5's rifles pre WWI to send to France comes from. But that is not what I found at all in the Marine and Marine rifle team files.

The Marines themselves only had purchased about a dozen A5 scopes total before WWI. And these scopes were purchased for testing.

The Marines simply did not buy A5 scopes in number till starting in the Spring and the Summer of 1917.

But if you want to know the Marines purchased all new team rifles in 1919 after the war. I know some reference an Army Captain in the Arms and the Man Magazine and say different. But when you read the docs from the Marines, and the diary of the team Capt that year, he stated they had to buy all new team rifles because they were all gone.

So yes the team rifles probably went to some war effort, though only a couple even had scopes and it's unclear if they were actually owned by the Marines or the personal property of the Marine shooter.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

My post had absolutely nothing to do with you. That myth has been around long before you. As for your post, I must respectfully disagree with just about everything you stated.