Still having head position/cheek-weld issues w/ Garand....

[mdoerner]

That target looks a lot like you're trying to "drive" the rifle. Trying to *force it* to shoot where you want it to instead of letting your position and natural point of aim *let it* shoot where it's going to naturally. That doesn't work; the rifle always wins.

When it comes to positions, everybody's body is different. You need to find what works for your body.

That said, no position should include any straining. Straining means you're using your muscles and that's something you don't want to do. Not only do you get tired but it's impossible to strain the exact same amount the exact same way for every shot. And if nothing else highpower is about being almost obsessive-compulsive about shot-to-shot consistency.

You want your positions to be as relaxed as possible. That way you can repeat them consistently. You may need to stretch or push a bit to get into position, especially at first, but once you're in you should be relaxed with very little to, if possible, no muscle tension.

Another key to a repeatable position are "landmarks." Having specific places for body parts to be in relation to other body parts or places on the rifle.

For me those head position landmarks are the receiver heel, trigger guard, thumb, and cheekbone:

-My thumb touches the left rear corner of the receiver heel
-My middle finger's second knuckle touches the back of the trigger guard resting in the depression in the wood where the TG latch goes
-My thumb touches my right nostril (but not inside!)
-My cheekbone rests on top of my thumb with the cheek skin/fat rolled up
-Chin slightly forward (but not straining) so I look through the center of my eye socket not the top

All in all pretty much like the Army Training Films.

Another trick is to use the Front Sight Screw to aid in sight alignment and checking head position. Get it tangent with the bottom of the Rear Sight Aperture. Move your head around and see how that alignment changes when your head position changes. Combined with your landmarks this will help you maintain a consistent head position.

Whether you'll see any benefit by using a Center Hold (aka Navy Hold) instead of 6 o'clock or any other hold depends on what you can see and repeat. Ditto for the NM Aperture. You may have other vision or shot execution issues that affect your group size and location but neither a different hold nor a new aperture will do anything to fix position issues.

Maury

Thank for your help, Murray. One other thing I've thought of. I did not let my left hand rest against farward swivel in the sling, I tend to "choke-up" and place my have further back. I betcha I varied the sling tension as well. Would this have contributed to the issues seen in the 1st photo? Thanks again for all your help.

Mike D

[Maury Krupp]

Are you calling any of those shots high or low? Do they all look good and is the front sight in focus when they break? Does the front sight return back where it started after recoil or is it somewhere else?

I wonder if you're having vision issues as well as head/position issues

What prescription do you have in those safety glasses? Normal distance? You may need a special shooting prescription, especially if you're at or approaching middle-age.

Instead of moving your head to see through the optical center move your glasses. Tape a foam earplug or two to the nose bridge. That should help some until you decide to buy a proper set of shooting glasses.

If you have a reasonably accurate .22 try practicing with it at 25-50yd. It's a good way to sort out position or execution issues that may be masked by the noise and recoil of the bigger gun.

It can get frustrating when you know you can do better but don't get discouraged. There's a lot going on with every shot and it can take a while to isolate and fix exactly what's going wrong. Then you have to apply that fix each and every time.

But if it was easy we wouldn't be doing it

Maury

PS- "Legs" are points earned toward a Distinguished Rifleman's badge. Matches are composed of Standing, Sitting, Prone Rapid, and Prone Slow "Stages." Stages are composed of one or more 10 shot "Strings"

[Maury Krupp]

...I betcha I varied the sling tension as well. Would this have contributed to the issues seen in the 1st photo?

Yes it can; especially if your hand is slipping forward (which may not be enough to notice but can be enough to affect your group) or you're repositioning your hand every so often and not getting it back in the same exact place each time.

If at all possible jam your non-firing hand up against that sling swivel. If your body can't do that get some "position-in-a-can" and glue your mitt in place. I have to do that for Sitting. It holds the rifle so I can relax.

Also get youself a landmark for the position of the butt in your shoulder. Mine is slightly below the collarbone in the pocket (again just like in the movies ) Inconsistent placement can move your shots up and down too.

Maury

[mdoerner]

Are you calling any of those shots high or low? Do they all look good and is the front sight in focus when they break? Does the front sight return back where it started after recoil or is it somewhere else?

They look good and the front sight is in focus. Those shots may be a bit low because I try and keep a thin sliver of white between the top of the post and the bottom of the target. I know ambient lighting can affect the position of the white sliver, but that was not an issue on this day (cloudy all match). I follow thru with the trigger, but I haven't checked position after recoil, so I'll add that to the list of things to check.

I wonder if you're having vision issues as well as head/position issues

What prescription do you have in those safety glasses? Normal distance? You may need a special shooting prescription, especially if you're at or approaching middle-age.

I was borderline bi-focal at my last checkup. My left eye has changed again (I'm nearsighted) but my right/primary eye is still pretty good. The safety glasses are identical to my regular prescription with the exception of being slightly tinted yellow.

Instead of moving your head to see through the optical center move your glasses. Tape a foam earplug or two to the nose bridge. That should help some until you decide to buy a proper set of shooting glasses.

Great idea.

If you have a reasonably accurate .22 try practicing with it at 25-50yd. It's a good way to sort out position or execution issues that may be masked by the noise and recoil of the bigger gun.

I'll try that if I have time, but my T-Bolt has a monte carlo raised comb and a scope, no irons. It may simply frustrate me further....

It can get frustrating when you know you can do better but don't get discouraged. There's a lot going on with every shot and it can take a while to isolate and fix exactly what's going wrong. Then you have to apply that fix each and every time.

But if it was easy we wouldn't be doing it

Maury

PS- "Legs" are points earned toward a Distinguished Rifleman's badge. Matches are composed of Standing, Sitting, Prone Rapid, and Prone Slow "Stages." Stages are composed of one or more 10 shot "Strings"

Oh, I'm not getting discouraged, but it's a major PITA when you THINK you've done something correctly, and the results say otherwise. I will have to work my positions over the next month, in the basement, with my shooting coat, and get into a consistent position, regardless of the circumstances. I'm ALMOST there, as the 1st 3 "stages" (thanks for correcting me) of the match really only showed my breathing was screwed up (i.e. everything was lined up horizontally, but vertical dispersion) but then I fall apart at the last stage, but honestly, I also get fatigued at that point so that also may have played a part as well.

In any case, thanks for all the pointers, and hopefully, I can come back next month with something besides another problem.

Mike D

[mdoerner]

Yes it can; especially if your hand is slipping forward (which may not be enough to notice but can be enough to affect your group) or you're repositioning your hand every so often and not getting it back in the same exact place each time.

If at all possible jam your non-firing hand up against that sling swivel. If your body can't do that get some "position-in-a-can" and glue your mitt in place. I have to do that for Sitting. It holds the rifle so I can relax.

Also get youself a landmark for the position of the butt in your shoulder. Mine is slightly below the collarbone in the pocket (again just like in the movies ) Inconsistent placement can move your shots up and down too.

Maury

Well, after a practice session or two, I'm going to tighten my sling up one set of holes, and now I am able to keep my hand against the swivel. One of my issues was that I had to "choke up" on the gun to get it lined up with the target (vertically). I'm still working on head position though. I'm able to get my head forward w/o too much strain now (moved the gun butt inward, closer to my noggin). But now I'm concerned under recoil of I'm not going to bruise up my cheek. Oh well, I'll just have to try it and see. Finally, my now Leupold 20-60X80mm scope showed up today, so the entry level Kowa 20-40X50mm is going to get set aside and hopefully I can get myself "arranged" properly w/o having to break from position from now on. Thanks for your help Murry. I'll let you know how the next session goes.

Mike D

[Mr. X]

The advice from Maury is pretty good. The key is establishing a consistent physical posture and natural point of aim vis-a-vis the rifle on every shot, and making a mental checklist on every shot.

One way to establish NPA is to close your eyes before the shot. If you open them and the front sight is way off target, move your body, not the rifle. Also take into account the entire sight picture -- not just the post. Are the protective wings centered in the aperture also? Is the entire target frame centered in the aperture? If not you'll have a good front sight image but poor sight alignment and you'll throw shots.

Do you shoot (assuming you are right handed) with your right leg bent as many shooters do? I don't recommend this. If your leg is not in the exact same position on each shot, your shoulder and head will not be in the same position either. I shoot straight-legged, boot tips on the ground, for consistent position.

Finally let's look at the rifle. You have some tight 3-shot clusters, but in inconsistent groupings. Is there any play in your front and back sights? Is there any play in your receiver to stock lockup? Also, very important -- is your front handguard slopping back and forth? This will cause thrown shots for sure.

Are you shooting M2 ball or handloads? Most handloads with run of the mill Hornady 150 FMJ can outperform the best M2 ball. I use 44.0 of 4064 or 4895 for 100-200 yard shooting.

[mdoerner]

The advice from Maury is pretty good. The key is establishing a consistent physical posture and natural point of aim vis-a-vis the rifle on every shot, and making a mental checklist on every shot.

One way to establish NPA is to close your eyes before the shot. If you open them and the front sight is way off target, move your body, not the rifle. Also take into account the entire sight picture -- not just the post. Are the protective wings centered in the aperture also? Is the entire target frame centered in the aperture? If not you'll have a good front sight image but poor sight alignment and you'll throw shots.

Do you shoot (assuming you are right handed) with your right leg bent as many shooters do? I don't recommend this. If your leg is not in the exact same position on each shot, your shoulder and head will not be in the same position either. I shoot straight-legged, boot tips on the ground, for consistent position.

Finally let's look at the rifle. You have some tight 3-shot clusters, but in inconsistent groupings. Is there any play in your front and back sights? Is there any play in your receiver to stock lockup? Also, very important -- is your front handguard slopping back and forth? This will cause thrown shots for sure.

Are you shooting M2 ball or handloads? Most handloads with run of the mill Hornady 150 FMJ can outperform the best M2 ball. I use 44.0 of 4064 or 4895 for 100-200 yard shooting.

OK, I was using my recently re-barreled Garand in .308 w/ Federal Hi-power boxed rounds from CMP, w/ 180 Grain SMK's. I don't think it was the ammo...or the gun. New CMP stock, no slop in the front hand guard. The rear hand guard may slide around possibly, as I had to relieve it to get it on the rifle, but I will have to investigate further. This rifle has a NM front post, but service rear sights. I do have some MINOR slop in the front sight/gas cylinder, and I will get around to peening the splines, but right now I don't believe that's the problem. I do not shoot w/ my right leg bent (used to do that, now I don't). I wasn't able to get a good angle relative to the target with my shooting mat, as I had shooters to both sides of me. I was turned only about 5-10 degrees rather than the 25-35 I've seen in the films.

I'm thinking Maury is right, it's still my noggin that's the problem. I've also adjusted the sling catch on my shooting coat upwards to about as high as it can go, so I get more elevation with my hand against the ferrule. That's one of the reasons I had to "choke up" on the stock, I couldn't get the front sight up w/o muscling the gun on the target w/ my hand against the ferrule before, but then it would slide down under fire. Taking a 1-2 sets of holes out of the sling I think will take care of this. The only issue with this is I have to drop my right shoulder a little to get the correct elevation. I'm not certain my shoulders are level with the ground when I do this, but then again, I wasn't sure if they were level before anyways.

I think I also need to tilt my head backwards a little, as I am certain I'm not looking through the optical center of my glasses, causing other sighting issues. Although this is slightly uncomfortable, I think that may be better than putting earplugs under the bridge of my glasses, as they will certainly come unglued under recoil. As long as I can lock my noggin in that position, the consistent sight picture should eliminate the wandering groups I'm seeing.

I will also try to see where the front sights are after recoil, as there may be other issues with my positioning.

Thanks for your help, I've got a whole month to practice before the next match....

Mike D
Thanks for

[Maury Krupp]

OK, I was using my recently re-barreled Garand in .308 w/ Federal Hi-power boxed rounds from CMP, w/ 180 Grain SMK's.

While you're more than likely correct it's not the ammo a 180gr is about the normal limit for bullet weight in an M1. Federal Gold Medal Match with a 168MK or a handload of 41.5gr IMR4895 or 42.5 IMR4064 with the 168 is the "industry standard" .308 M1/M14 match load. The same powder charge and a Speer 125TNT makes a nice, low recoil, accurate enough load for 100-200yd that won't beat you up and induce a flinch.

Mentioning getting beat up, besides its help in obtaining a repeatable head position, another reason to try for a good solid spot weld on your thumb is it keeps that thumb from getting a running start on smacking you. You and the rifle recoil as a unit.

New CMP stock, no slop in the front hand guard. The rear hand guard may slide around possibly, as I had to relieve it to get it on the rifle, but I will have to investigate further.

For a Service Grade rifle you *want* some slop in both handguards to allow for barrel expansion. The Front Handguard Ferrule should not touch the Gas Cylinder; the Rear Handguard should float on the Rear Handguard Clip and Lower Band. Otherwise expect your shots to climb up as the barrel heats.

This rifle has a NM front post, but service rear sights. I do have some MINOR slop in the front sight/gas cylinder, and I will get around to peening the splines,

I don't like the NM post but that's just personal preference. It's too skinny for me; not enough to look at.

I do not shoot w/ my right leg bent (used to do that, now I don't). I wasn't able to get a good angle relative to the target with my shooting mat, as I had shooters to both sides of me. I was turned only about 5-10 degrees rather than the 25-35 I've seen in the films.

You may want to re-think the bent leg position.

Bringing your right leg up gets you off your gut and on your side. That makes breathing easier and reduces the up-down movement. It makes stretching your left arm out and getting it under the rifle easier too. You get a slightly higher position which may help get a more upright level head position. You can make minor elevation corrections by moving your thigh forwards and backwards; minor windage by moving your leg left or right. Curling your lower body around gets you more mass behind the rifle.

I've also adjusted the sling catch on my shooting coat upwards to about as high as it can go

Sling hooks are not allowed for Service Rifle or Games (CMP Rule 6.9.4 and NRA Rule 3.13(b)). Many SR shooters put the sling above the pulse pad where it works almost as good as a sling hook but stays within the rules.

The only issue with this is I have to drop my right shoulder a little to get the correct elevation. I'm not certain my shoulders are level with the ground when I do this, but then again, I wasn't sure if they were level before anyways.

Again the bent leg may help here. I don't know how important level shoulders are (if at all)?

I think I also need to tilt my head backwards a little, as I am certain I'm not looking through the optical center of my glasses, causing other sighting issues. Although this is slightly uncomfortable, I think that may be better than putting earplugs under the bridge of my glasses, as they will certainly come unglued under recoil. As long as I can lock my noggin in that position, the consistent sight picture should eliminate the wandering groups I'm seeing.

You might try some masking tape to hold the plugs in place. Or rolling up more cheek skin/fat to get a higher, more upright head position. But *IF* you can get a comfortable, relaxed *REPEATABLE* head position without them that's OK too.

I will also try to see where the front sights are after recoil, as there may be other issues with my positioning.

The front sight should be back at your NPA. If it's someplace else note if it's the same someplace shot-to-shot. Also note where the shot lands relative to where the sights landed (eg, when the sights were high left the shots were low left or whatever). Different places can mean different things. It can help isolate problems and whether it's the same problem each time.

If it's at all possible at your next match, grab one of those guys with a DR or P100 pin on his hat and ask him to coach you. He'll see things that you don't even know you're doing. You can't fix it if you don't know about it

Maury

[jacksimonton]

I went through each post and found anyone hasn't discussed regarding hearing protection. We need to very aware of shooting and hunting hearing protection. If we don't care about it, then we will suffer from the noise-induced hearing loss. If we shoot the gun, then it produces sounds between 120dB to 150dB. It is enough to damage hearing. So we should be aware of it. When I was searching for hearing protection for shooters and hunters, a lot of them are suggesting to use cheap foam and earmuffs. I know, and all know that they will block the sounds but cannot do filters the sounds that are required so it won't be workable for the hunters.

Because hunters need to hear the sounds from animal approaching and team members conversation, but cheap foam and earmuffs block these sounds, and they won't be able to listen to each other.

According to my research, we need to use electronic hearing protection and able to meet all the requirements.
I will share the websites so that you guys can see these websites and get more information

https://www.bigearinc.com/products/best-ear-protection-for-shooting

https://www.gunearprotection.com/how-to-buy-the-best-shooting-earplug

[PWC]

Mdoerner- as far as not looking thru the optical center of your glasses, you might try the disposable stick on biocals on line; they are soft and can be cut to fit in the upper left corner of your right glasses (assuming you are right handed).

To find out what power to use go to the eyehlasses display in your drug store. Keep your prescrips on, and try on the readers over the prescrips and back up to front sight distance from the test chart. Look at the optical value of the reader that gives the clearest view. Order that value of soft bifocal.

For cheek weld, find your correct weld, and place a piece of mole skin there. Helps get weld back quickly, and in cold weather it's warmer than the stock.