Still having head position/cheek-weld issues w/ Garand....

[mdoerner]

Hi All,

I've gotten a bit better since my last posting, but I've still got rear-sight picture issues w/ my positioning. After looking at the 1942 training film/video, I no longer keep my head to the rear of the stock, where it is more comfortable, but just forward of the comb near the mid-point of the pistol grip. I shot 83-0, 84-0, 85-0 on the 1st 3 legs of of the National Match Course at Youngstown club I go to for CMP matches, which is VERY consistent for me. I did have vertical stringing on those targets, but breathing and trigger control are "next" on my list of things to focus on. I could have done much better on the last leg, and I need your help to figure out where I need to keep my noggin on the stock.

I shot the 20 round final leg in 3-shot groups before I would lean over to the left and check my shooting with my scope. I noticed I was going up and to the left, so I adjusted my sights once, then again, and finally a 3rd time before I thought maybe something was wrong with the gun. One of the locals was coaching a youngster and so I asked him what was wrong and he instantly said "head position behind the rear sight was changed". Here's the target in question....



....as you can see, some very nice 3-shot groups, unfortunately nowhere near the freakin' X

So I keep my head back and relaxed, and that's no good. I'm stretching my head now to get it closer to the rear sight, but evidently, that's no good. The only other thing I can think of is to position my head at the top of the comb of the stock, before the pistol grip. I'm about 6'-0" and 180 lbs, kinda lanky, but not so much anymore...

Your constructive criticism is appreciated. That flier on the upper left corner was one of my last 2 shots for that leg, and it kept me from going past 400 (I got 395-0 today total). I'm trying to break 400, honest, but this head position/cheek-weld thing is really throwing me for a loop. Thanks.

Mike D

[mdoerner]

Also, I am using the 6 O'clock hold for these targets. Is there any advantage to using the center hold? Or Navy hold?

Finally, Would a NM rear aperture help? Or would I just be spending more money and not be solving this problem? Thanks.

Mike D

[Maury Krupp]

That target looks a lot like you're trying to "drive" the rifle. Trying to *force it* to shoot where you want it to instead of letting your position and natural point of aim *let it* shoot where it's going to naturally. That doesn't work; the rifle always wins.

When it comes to positions, everybody's body is different. You need to find what works for your body.

That said, no position should include any straining. Straining means you're using your muscles and that's something you don't want to do. Not only do you get tired but it's impossible to strain the exact same amount the exact same way for every shot. And if nothing else highpower is about being almost obsessive-compulsive about shot-to-shot consistency.

You want your positions to be as relaxed as possible. That way you can repeat them consistently. You may need to stretch or push a bit to get into position, especially at first, but once you're in you should be relaxed with very little to, if possible, no muscle tension.

Another key to a repeatable position are "landmarks." Having specific places for body parts to be in relation to other body parts or places on the rifle.

For me those head position landmarks are the receiver heel, trigger guard, thumb, and cheekbone:

-My thumb touches the left rear corner of the receiver heel
-My middle finger's second knuckle touches the back of the trigger guard resting in the depression in the wood where the TG latch goes
-My thumb touches my right nostril (but not inside!)
-My cheekbone rests on top of my thumb with the cheek skin/fat rolled up
-Chin slightly forward (but not straining) so I look through the center of my eye socket not the top

All in all pretty much like the Army Training Films.

Another trick is to use the Front Sight Screw to aid in sight alignment and checking head position. Get it tangent with the bottom of the Rear Sight Aperture. Move your head around and see how that alignment changes when your head position changes. Combined with your landmarks this will help you maintain a consistent head position.

Whether you'll see any benefit by using a Center Hold (aka Navy Hold) instead of 6 o'clock or any other hold depends on what you can see and repeat. Ditto for the NM Aperture. You may have other vision or shot execution issues that affect your group size and location but neither a different hold nor a new aperture will do anything to fix position issues.

Maury

[Liam]

This is an interesting thread for me since I am a novice at high power position shooting. I'm glad you posted your concerns here on the CSP so others, like me, can benefit from the informed responses. Mr. Krupp's comments are informative and his suggestions helpful. Just out of curiosity, what sling type, glove or mitt (if any) and jacket do you employ? I find that good, repeatable shooting is the result of various factors coming together. I'd like to know what YOUR various factors are and how you bring them together.

[PWC]

Are you adjusting your natural point of aim to match the desired impact point or are you "muscleing" the sights back onto the POI?

[mdoerner]

Well, I don't THINK, I'm muscling the gun, but I can't say for certain that I'm not, and I'll have to pay attention to that. I was only un-shouldering the rifle to chamber an additional round after each shot, but completely breaking position to look thru the scope. So I had to completely re-set after every look thru the scope, and I see that that's PART of my problem. The new scope will be here this week and I will have to go through my setup as far as location of scope, rounds, etc. to ensure I don't have to beak position in order to gain additional information.

I also believe I'm not looking thru the optical center of my glasses, as I had to wipe the "brow" potion of my glasses twice in order to see the sights. However, raising my head to see thru the center of my glasses (large safety glass lenses btw - corrective prescription) then pulls my head off the stock.

Methinks I'll have to not only "dry fire" this month, but in prone position as well, to find out what will work here...

Mike D

[mdoerner]

I use a Champions Choice Coudra jacket and glove. Sling os M1907 repro. FWIW Liam.

The only problem with posting pictures like mine is you get "I suck at High Power" written all over you, but I don't care. I suck at High Power, and want to get better....

Mike Doerner

[mdoerner]

Since Liam is curious as to more targeting pictures, here's the 1st 3 legs of the match I "failed" to break 400 points at....FWIW.

200 Yrd Standing 1 in the 10 ring, 3 in the 9 ring, the rest you can see. Vertical stringing is the issue here. Oh, and I jerked the trigger twice, can you guess which ones?


200 Yrd sitting Vertical stringing....again.


200 yard prone simulating 300 yards. Vertical stringing....well, you guess....


....and then you know what happened in the last stage. FWIW. Thing is, I was 83-0,84-0,and 85-0, and I shoulda had a lot more points had I kept things on the X or in the black even, and broke 400 easy. But it's kinda like football, the favored team SHOULD win, but they have to actually go out and win.....Oh well, until next month.

Mike D

[mdoerner]

Grrrr! That was an 81 not an 83 on the 1st target! It's bad enough I can't shoot, but now I can't add! Aruuugh!

Mike D

[mdoerner]

Also, here's my score for October 2009's match (which I won the Garand category, 395-0 has gotta be the "lowest" winning score, but some days it just pays to show up, it was a toss up between 3 of us...Everyone else brought their AR's that day)

This day I did add things up correctly, with 79-0,85-0,86-0,and 145-0 for the 4 legs. As you can see from the targets, though, I had very "shotgun-like" groupings, but at least all of 'em were on the paper, if not the target. And no, my phone camera is not flakey, the sun and clouds were deciding to mess with us.....Went from sunny, to bright, to sunny, to cloudy.......

200 Yard standing


200 Yard Sitting Rapid


200 Yard (300 Simulated) Prone Rapid


200 Yard (600 Simulated) Prone Slowfire


Hope this helps you in your quest for info. This match was shot with HXP surplus, same equipment as before though regarding shooting jacket, sling, etc....

Mike D