.45-70 cartouche question +1

[Piste]

According to Poyer...last year of production was 1893...so how could a stock have a "JSA 1898" cartouche?? The thing looks legit to me but am far from expert.

Second question...stock mentioned above is on a rifle with serial dating to early 1879...so presumably the original rifle was put on the replacement stock at some point??

[Dick Hosmer]

Some trapdoors are known to have been refurbished as late as 1901, some of which were re-cartouched. A classic example is the 1800 rifles officially shortened to cadet length in 1895. I have one of them, 368714, with cartouche of JSA/1895 located somewhat forward of the usual placement. JSA was, of course, basically a Krag inspector.

[Piste]

What would you characterize as "the usual placement" location? This cartouche is pretty much directly below the rearmost crossbolt. My understanding is that they were typically more rearward toward the butt?

Also any chance a refurb involved a completely new stock?

[Dick Hosmer]

Yes, the late stamps ARE pretty much right below the bolt - the normal location is a couple of inches to the right and a bit lower.

For a rifle, a new stock might have been used if the old one was badly worn, but one of the hallmarks of those reworked into cadets is a beautifully-done (almost invisible - and barrel must be taken out of the wood to see it) filler in the former rod-keeper mortise.

[Kragrifle]

Dick
What is the latest date you have seen on a real TD? Also, if the cartouche is that far forward was this done to avoid the original cartouche? I have a double cartouche rifle that was pictured on a Springfield Research magazine years ago with a double cartouche. I need to find that rifle and show a few photos.

[Dick Hosmer]

I've seen Al's picture of 1901 of course, but the latest I've actually handled is 1895, mine and one other. Yes, I do think that the forward location was to avoid the other stamp - but mine (368714) being a cadet which, of course, was thinned slightly at the wrist area, shows no trace of the original cartouche. My experimental M1884 rod-bayonet (318991) bears two stamps, 1885 and 1887, but they are side-by-side on the wrist.

[Carlsr]

Here is another question for you Dick, Do not have it as of yet but I purchased a M88 rod bayonet with an 1888 cartouche just below the rear lock plate bolt which is where the new cartouche would have been placed. There is no cartouche or evidence of one where the original would have been placed. The rifle has the two piece trigger guard, 1873 dated breech block along with two circle P's and serial# 321005. The rifle appears to have the standard M88 rod locking mechanism. I have another M88 with a cartouche date of 1889 which is also stamped under the rear lock plate screw along with all the previous mentioned markings. Serial# on that rifle is 318422 and is documented as a 1884 rod bayonet.
Al has a rifle pictured in the news letters on page 347 showing a M88 with two cartouches dated 1888 and 1889. The 89 date is under the rear lock plate screw and the 88 date is in the original location.
Since I can not see the original cartouche date do you have any idea why there would be an 88 date under the screw??
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[Dick Hosmer]

Carl, I just do not know. The stamping/dating of "early" M1888-configuration rifles is confusing. 321005 should also have been an 1884XRB (and thus requiring a second cartouche - which, when you get the gun you might be able to see traces of). Perhaps they reworked those first before commencing 'main line' production of the new built from scratch rod-bayonet rifles? Then there is the pesky question of the "transition" latch - which is apparently VERY rare. We know that the are at LEAST three flavors of 88: (1) mainline, 500000-plus (2) converted XRBs, 320xxx (3) "anything over 96300" - those PROBABLY among the last made. One thing we must not forget is that they were all tools for immediate use and no one cared about making sense for future collectors - the government then was more frugal and if it fit, matched as to interchangeability, was safe and in good condition, they used it - witness 1873 blocks being used up, for three full years, after the 1884 model change. To conclude, there are still some puzzles to be solved, which just adds to the fun . . .

[Carlsr]

Thanks Dick, just puzzling that the 1888 cartouche is under the rear lock plate screw which is were the new cartouche would be placed. Would be nice to know what year the original cartouche was. It was shipped today so I probably won’t get it until this weekend or early next week.