m 12 trench gun

[k arga]

On gun broker 869749173 , what's the group think about it?

[scosgt]

On gun broker 869749173 , what's the group think about it?

Rick Crozier sells amazing guns.
It is going to bring astronomical money

[Ironlip]

Agree that Rick's guns often bring high prices, and I suspect this one will too. I do have a couple of thoughts on it.

1) Is it blued or is it parked? The serial 1035158 is well into the range of originally parked shotguns. This one has the rough finish typical of guns in that range, but the images make it appear blued over that rough finish. I have read that Winchester did not complete the guns in serial number order. That might explain it. But, this one is almost to the end of reported production. Canfield's highest reported number is 1035508. All 7 of the Model 12's in my photo database that begin with 103 are clearly parked.

2) The butt stock appears to be a lighter color than the pump handle which I have not seen before. It does appear to be oil finished and not varnished, which would be correct.

[Tom Doniphon]

It looks good to me, although the stock marks are a bit weak.

But check out this Model 97 trench(link below). It sold for $7,000. Pay close attention to the stock marks.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/869416228

[scosgt]

It looks good to me, although the stock marks are a bit weak.

But check out this Model 97 trench(link below). It sold for $7,000. Pay close attention to the stock marks.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/869416228

The W on the adapter on the 97 is wrong. They did not start marking them until the 97 was out of production.

- - - Updated - - -

It looks good to me, although the stock marks are a bit weak.

But check out this Model 97 trench(link below). It sold for $7,000. Pay close attention to the stock marks.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/869416228

On the M12, it is factory Parked with a coat of dried cosmoline over it, if you take that off with solvent it will be grey,
HOWEVER, the buttstock is not original to that gun. The late parked guns had a stock with a lower comb and no flutes. That was one of the money saving changes, along with the parked finish.

[Tom Doniphon]

I wouldn’t discount the fluted stock on the parked M12. While the majority of the parkerized guns do have oiled stocks that are not fluted, I have data on a few with fluted stocks and some of these guns are in mint condition. And I have a late made blued M12 trench in “as new” condition with an oiled unfluted stock as found on most of the parkerized guns, and I’ve seen other blued guns with the same type unfluted stock.

[scosgt]

I wouldn’t discount the fluted stock on the parked M12. While the majority of the parkerized guns do have oiled stocks that are not fluted, I have data on a few with fluted stocks and some of these guns are in mint condition. And I have a late made blued M12 trench in “as new” condition with an oiled unfluted stock as found on most of the parkerized guns, and I’ve seen other blued guns with the same type unfluted stock.

So first of all you mentioned the markings not being perfect. Second, as you know the last blued gun was made before the first parked gun was made, we know that from serial numbers. So if you have a late blued with the no flutes stock, that means they were already out to the others. For the price that gun will sell for, there is no "maybe it was a leftover stock or they pulled the wrong stock or whatever". In my opinion that stock did not come on that gun.

[Tom Doniphon]

I do believe they started to use the oiled unfluted stocks on blued guns before the parked guns were produced, or there were some blued guns that were not assembled until after they started to make parked guns with the unfluted stocks.

Just to be clear, the stock marks that I refer to not being perfect are the ones on the Model 97 I linked above, not the Model 12. IMO, those Model 97 stock marks are totally fake. Just put them side to side with those on some other guns and you will see the difference.

[scosgt]

Gotcha