USMC Springfields

[gunn308]

This forum was recomended to me by the people on US Militaria forum.

Title:
1903 Springfields

Description:
2-1903 Springfields USMC 1-serial# 476525 SA barrel date7-11 with grooved trigger 1-serial# 638092 SA barrel date 2-17 with smooth trigger note- serial# could be 658092 it is under scope base, scope is J. STEVENS scope base is stamped FZB even have stamp that was used looks hand made 1- model 1875 USMC officers sabre with ivory bolsters, blade engraved all items in wooden case w/USMC brass padlock ,case is marked outside; F.Z. BECKER Captain USMC inside; QMSGT Jordan Oct. 27, 18

Condition:
rifles & sabre all original in excellent condition case has normal wear

Origin:
I inherited these from my great uncle Capt. Frank Z. Becker whom I am told was a range officer , and I am told he shot competitively for the Marine Corps I am also told that these rifles may have been presented to him by the Springfield Armory and used in competition this I can't verify.



Both barrels are marked SA then the BOMB then the date and there is an H on the bayonet stud. Both have checkered butt plates with doors for cleaning kits.
The scoped one has stamped in the stock behind the trigger guard, 1/8"tall numbers, the # 76, inside the stock the # 88, and inside the magazine it looks like the # 7 not sure about that one. With the stock removed the barrel is marked pJ50, the receiver is marked KCX and 78 6 and the barrel next to receiver has what looks like a backwards 3. The bolt has the # 2 stamped on it & the bolt lug has the # 15. The rear sight has a HESSIAN nickel sight cover, the scope is J. STEVENS ARMS & TOOL Co. CHICOPEE FALLS. MASS. U.S.A. Pat Pndg No. but there is no number , the only # on the scope is 8 and that is on the top front. Scope is 15 5/16" X 3/4". Got a 12 pt 225 lb white tail with it when I was 14 then found out from Bill Morrison that the first 800,000 weren't safe to shoot.
The unscoped one has 90 behind the trigger guard& the bolt relief has the letter E stamped in it & the magazine is marked 5p there again it is hard to tell. Inside the handguard the barrel is stamped 15R & next to the receiver is B25, the receiver is marked in various spots with 3, A, V, U, 1 & C with a tail like Q . P3290152 copy.jpgP3300162.jpgP1010001_1.jpg

[bruce]

Rare and wonderful! Will follow this post with interest. Sincerely. bruce.

[gunn308]

Any info would be apreciated. P1010002_1.jpgP1010008_1.jpgP1010009_1.jpgP1010013_1.jpgP3290154.jpg

[gunn308]

P3290155.jpgP3290156.jpgP3300158.jpg

[gunn308]

IMG_20200123_104808557#1.jpgIMG_20200123_105420588.jpgIMG_20200123_105912667.jpgIMG_20200123_110027500#1.jpg

[bruce]

You might want to also consider posting these pictures and your questions at the CMP forum. Sincerely. bruce.

[cplnorton]

We talked several years back when you posted these on the US Military forum.

The mounts that are on the Steven's scope are unique. I've never seen another set that look like this. The closest I have seen to this appear in the Army documents from 1923, but they are not exact either. They are different that the standard USMC Mann Niedner mounts that you see in the Marine Corps photos of this time.

The Mann style taper blocks on you rifle also seem shorter than the USMC style. But I would really need clearer pics to be able to tell the spacing and block style.

The blocks are missing one trait that I can see clearly in the pics that I see on the USMC Mann Nienders made in WWI, but I really need better pics to tell much more.

Now the Army was experimenting with the Mann Style taper blocks at this time. So the story you were told that SA gave him this rifle to trial. That is totally feasible. Mann Style taper blocks were not exclusive to the Marines at all.

It is also very common back then that when trialing new telescopic equipped rifle designs they would give them to distinguished rifle marksmans to trial.

So the story of SA giving this rifle to a Marine shooter of his caliber, is VERY highly plausible.

I really need more pics to tell more, but what I seen of your rifle so far it is a one off. The other one, I have Marine team rifle serials in that range that pre date WWI.

These are amazing rifles and I am very envious of them. I have substantial amount of Marine team rifle records and and Army sniper records of this time, so these are extremely fascinating to me and have been for years.

[cplnorton]

For instance, this is a WWII Mann Niender USMC Sniper. The Marines built at least a 150 of these during WWII using parts leftover from the WWI A5 sniper program and the taper blocks they built at the Philly Depot.

These are the traditional blocks you see in the WWI pics and also on the existing WWI examples that I have no doubt that are real.

For instance on the rear block it takes up the whole length of the receiver. On yours I think it's shorter. It doesn't take up the whole length and the spacing I'm curious is even the same for the screws.





As I said your mount style is not the same as you see in the WWI USMC Mann Niedner conversion that is traditional. I can document this style also in WWI pics in France and in Sniper school in 1919 at Quantico. The Marines took a WRA #2 mount and cut the dovetail base, changed the micrometers to a better design with pointer, and then got rid of the grasshopper spring and added an internal plunger.




Your's is not a #2 WRA mount converted. You can even see on the side of the WRA it is split to be able to tighten. Your's doesn't even have that split, let alone the micrometers and base are different.



I almost wonder if your mount isn't a Steven's that has been converted. But I don't know Steven's well enough to say for sure. I've never studied a Steven's mount. Though I know Steven's heavily copied the A5 design and made a cheaper version than WRA.

The Mariens for sure did one off's though. This is from 1923. This was a Marine team rifle.




Personally I think there are 4 likely scenarios for your rifle.

1) Niedner did a handful of M1903's for the Marine rifle team in 1916. These were done for the rifle team and he did use a taper mount design.

2) Niedner converted a 150 Marine Corps rifles in 1917. But there is nothing for certain what these rifle exactly looked like. The ones that the Marine did themselves post the summer of 1918, I think I know conclusively what those look like between the new pics I have found, and the couple existing examples that I can document to the time frame. Whether these ones done by the Marines at the Depot are identical to the 150 done by Niedner, it's anyone's guess. My best guess is, they are not. But I doubt there is anyway to ever know for certain.

3) Your rifle is one of the trial rifles done with the taper blocks that the Army details post WWI. The Army was experimenting with the Taper blocks.

4) Your rifle blocks and mount were done by another commercial gunsmith. The taper block design by Mann was very, very popular at this time and the patent did not preclude others from using it. So there were several commercial gunsmiths that did indeed submit compies of telescopic rifles to the branches to try to get the design approved and get a govt contract. It could easily be one of those as well.

I would certainly love to see more pics of that telescopic equipped rifle, especially the blocks and mount. I just have thousands of pages of docs from this time from the Army and MArines on these telescopic equipped rifles and I find them very, very interesting.

[gunn308]

I'll get more/better pics tonight. The rear mount is smaller than the forward mount and center - center is about 7 3/8"

- - - Updated - - -

Brophy shows one pic in the optics chapter with a Stevens scope.

[cplnorton]

Stevens was trying to get a scope contract with the Army and the Marines. For instance they submitted their first scope directly to the Marine Corps in 1911. Little was written about it.

I know I have them also submitting several scopes to the Army. I think it was two different times. I forget the time frame but it was pre WWI. I want to say like 1912 and 1914. I can't remember. I didn't go back and pull the contracts. But one of those rifles is actually still in the Springfield Museum. That rifle might be pictured in Brophy. If it's not pictured in there, I have pics of the rifle taken back then. I never remember what Brophy has in his book.

It was a different scope than this one though.

Now the 150 rifles converted by Niedner in 1917. We really don't know for sure what scope he used. I've found mentions Stevens did have a contract with the Marines, but Stevens was also producing a lot more than scopes, so that is a possibility.

For the 150 to Niedner, WRA did not sell them the A5 scopes directly. WRA did sell over 500 to the Navy around that time, but it's unsure if this is where the Marines got their 150 for Niedner to convert, or possibly he could have converted another type of scope. Such as the Stevens. I wouldn't rule it out. Maybe that is the mention on why I found Stevens had a contract with the Marines. But just no way to know since those docs don't seem to exist anymore.

Those 150 by Niender we have a lot of questions over, because very little documentation exists. The Marines had a document purge around 1920 and a lot were destroyed.

If anyone tells you they know very much about those 150 by Niedner, other than Niedner converted 150, they are feeding you a line.

Those 150 by Niender are a complete mystery.


Is there any where on your stock the full serial number is stamped? Maybe on the right side around the bolt handle?