1865-66 50/70 trapdoor

[Belling10]

Can anyone tell me exactly what I have. I bought this at a estate auction several weeks ago. The barrel is 22 in long

[Dick Hosmer]

It's hard to tell, without more pictures, just what was put together when, why and how, but the odds of it being real/right are 99.99% against.

At first glance it APPEARS to be a "Model 1866 Carbine" but the problem is - NONE were ever made, at least for issue.

I'm assuming that the "1865" component of your question comes from the date on the lockplate?

The action is from a Model 1866, as is the rear sight, but the thumb latch (from this angle) appears to possibly be from an 1868. I reserve judgement to correct that statement. The stock looks good - again from what I can see - but that would date from 1870, though a handful of 1868 carbines were made for test. The top curvature at the tip appears a bit off, too abrupt, from this angle.

Is there a filled (or open) groove in the stock for a cleaning rod? The trigger guard bow looks to be original carbine, but that could be post-1873, or even - it looks narrow - from an 1869 cadet rifle!

The front sight looks professional and of the period - Bubba's work is usually cruder. Wear and patina look decent and uniform.

Is there a sling ring and bar on the far side?

This is a piece that begs to be handled - at least we need to see a lot more pictures. As I said the odds are VERY long that it isn't right, but SA did make some "one-offs" (I have an 1873 Carbine with left-hand rifling) so you really can never say never.

In short, I just cannot say without more info.

[Belling10]

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[Belling10]

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[Belling10]

The auction I acquired it from was a massive civil war collector estate auction from Lexington Va. I loved the gun so I took a chance on it.

[Dick Hosmer]

Thanks for the new pictures. I still don't know - but the flat-based swivel bar (and would be a very scarce part on the loose) is the same as that found on an M1870 carbine. I still don't like the foretip, and you did not answer about the cleaning rod groove, or lack thereof? Chance of it being real went up maybe 5%. Interesting piece - someone (perhaps even SA) went to a lot of trouble to make it (almost) right and they didn't bugger anything in the process. If you do not mind my asking - how much was it? You may have backed into a bargain - but it will still be very tough to prove. If not Bubba, perhaps a lunchbox job from the Armory? And, who is to say they did not mock-up a carbine, very early on? Wish someone really knowledgeable could actually hold it in their hands.

[Belling10]

I ended up getting it for 1500 and as far the cleaning rod I see no grooves for a clean rod. Would you happen to know anywhere I could ship it to for a better inspection? I would really like to find out the history and value on this one. I appreciate the info you supplied me with so far. Thanks

[Dick Hosmer]

I've posted a note on www.trapdoorcollector.com - hopefully that will start something. I'm in CA, but there are many knowledgeable people on the east coast, and, I believe the Baltimore show should be coming up soon - you should be able to show it to Al Frasca, or several other people (John Spangler, Dr. John Flynn, etc.) there. Al is THE reigning dean of trapdoor authorities.

[Fred]

Both Dick Hosmer and Al are THE men I’d send it to. They literally wrote the books on the subject of Trapdoor Springfield’s.

[John]

Both Dick Hosmer and Al are THE men I’d send it to. They literally wrote the books on the subject of Trapdoor Springfield’s.

Sounds like you arein the Virginia area. You may want to use this as an excuse to attend the Maryland Arms Collectors "Baltimore Show" in Timonium, MD on March 16-17. Al Frasca is usually there and you can show it to him in person. It is the BEST antique gun show in the country, held once a year. No post 1898 handguns allowed (except for displays). At most gun shows you a lucky to find someone who has read a book, here you can meet the guys who wrote the gun books!

The sling ring bar looks real to me (don't claim to be an expert) and there seems to be no evidence of cleaning rod channel in the forend. If you take the barreled action out, you can verify that the stock has not been pieced under the barrel band which would eliminate the rod channel, and you can also compare the inletting cuts for the M1866 extractor spring, hopefully with a standard M1866 rifle. They are nice clean machine cut, not raggedy hand work.

My gut says someone made a shooter years ago which now has a half century of age to it. But, see what Al Frasca says.