1865 1st Allin Cadet.

[Carlsr]

Found this 1st Allin Cadet on Collectors firearms. I have Dick Hosmer's book The 58 and 50 caliber rifles. Seems to be correct to me but was wondering if anyone here could take a look at it?
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/18...-58-rf-al4488/
Thanks

[Dick Hosmer]

Hello Carl,

The caveat on those arms is that we are still not completely sure who did them, or when. Al Frasca, for one, is VERY skeptical.

If there were only 270 done, I've seen (maybe 5 or 6, plus my own) way more than my share.

That one has been, in my opinion, overcleaned (for example, breechblock support should match block, not barrel) and spiffed up, including a large wood patch above the lockplate, which I do not believe SA would have done. Speaking of the lockplate, M1865s were USUALLY (if not always) dated 1865 and will have the extra milling on the inside. It's pretty, but almost TOO pretty, but at least the price isn't outlandish - as it is with much of their stuff. Perhaps they know more than they are telling and just trying to move it?

[Carlsr]

Thanks Dick.
I thought it was over cleaned myself but just wanted an opinion from those who know way more than myself. Like you said the price isn't outlandish like most of their rifles but every once in a while I check their site just for an 1870 rifle. Not sure how long this one has been there??? I did not notice the patch so like you said, they know more than they are telling. Thanks for all the information! I love your books also!!

[Kragrifle]

It should have the “welded” on front band, filled in band spring inletting, and I seem to remember that it should have the later SWP cartouche. I have two of these one bright and one blued in many of the parts ,

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Always thought these were interesting. J. DeChristopher described this musket in one of his early catalogs. May be able to find mine.

[Carlsr]

Was not aware that the front band was welded on. What would be the purpose? Surely you would not be able to disassemble the rifle once it is welded on????

[Edatbeach]

From the info I’ve seen, and the examples I have handled (and 1 I have) these are not Springfield Armory cadets. There is no mention of any but one example in armory quarterly reports. The quality is not up to armory standards: only the last 6 or 8 inches of the barrel is tapered to fit a bayonet, the front sight is not dovetailed on, the end of the ramrod is roughly finished, and the muzzle crown is unlike any other Springfield Armory gun.

[Dick Hosmer]

Whoever did the work cut the sling swivel off the old lower (middle? my mind is mush at present) band and brazed (not welded) it to the new upper band. My gun, like Ed's, is plain at the lower end, not threaded as Al says it should be - which is one of his main complaints. The 'crown' on mine is more like a tapered reamer was run into the bore.

[Carlsr]

Merry Christmas!! So, it is the sling swivel that is brazed to the band not the band brazed to the barrel? I took it as Kragrifle said it was a welded on band not swivel. I did see the patch you mentioned, thought it was a crack ahead of the lock plate. Could this have been replaced at some point due to that area of the stock being thinned out for the ejector?

[Dick Hosmer]

Merry Christmas to you as well!

Yes, the sling swivel was simply relocated. I would take some slight issue with Ed's statement about the conversion not being of SA quality. While some features ARE (very) slightly "different" there is nothing crude or ugly about the work, like - for example - the Bannerman whack-offs with thinned wrists and poorly spaced bands. THOSE guns are crap. You can barely see the band patch on my "mystery cadet", and the swivel looks like it was meant to be there. Only real flaw is the non-threaded rod (which is what I meant in post #7 rather than the "gun" being plain at the lower end!)

As to the lockplate area, yes, the wood is critically thin at that point, and a great many, really most, specimens show at least some damage, so often so that it is basically accepted as a fact of life unless you want to spend a LOT of money on a First Allin. That one must have had a severe chip out to cause such a patch, and I do not believe it was done at time of shortening. The rifle at Collectors is really not that appealing to me.

[Kragrifle]

I dug these two 2 band first Allin conversions out to show what I have seen. Both have the brazed on front swivel, filled in band spring slot, proportioned band spacing and full figured wood around the lock plates. Both have the swelled type ram rods though neither has any threaded ends. The nicer of the two is finished in the bright with an 1865 lock plate and both SWP and ESA cartouches. The other appears to have been finished blue and has an 1862 lock plate. This musket has no inspector marks and appears to have a filled in repair in the wood opposite the lock plate.

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