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  1. Default WWI USMC Scope Case...

    A friend of mine recently came across a WWI era case for the Winchester A5 scope. There are no markings on the piece apart from a name that's stenciled on the carrying strap. We've been told that this type of case was used by the USMC in WWI. Is there a list of Marine snipers from that period? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Len

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    ..of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an fawning court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants. -Alexander Hamilton , The Federalist Papers

  2. Default

    Be careful what you ask for: http://www.jouster2.com/forums/showt...er-Scope-Cases

    Short answer: probably not. Name looks to me more rubber-stamped than stenciled--something I've often seen used on target shooters' eqpt. of the period.
    Last edited by clintonhater; 07-29-2017 at 07:16.

  3. #3

    Default

    You can order his service record book, I can help you with that if you're interested. Shoot me a PM if you are

  4. #4
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    I'm still on the fence on these named cases. The problem it's so hard to prove who put the name on it, and when. And how do you know if the name was a Marine, soldier, civlian, or faked 20 years ago by some humper?

    The other problem in this is every WRA A5 case, automatically becomes a WWI USMC sniper case when shown online. Because everyone always thinks only the MArines had A5 snipers. But that isn't true in anyway shape or form. All the stuff the Marines received in the A5 program, was recieved by others as well. Nothing was exclusive to the Marines in the WWI Sniper program. You name, the Army had it as well. Besides others.

    Like for example these cases. The US Army and the Marines received a total of 2550 Leather cases in 1917/18. And really that was only a calendar year. What they received before this, and after I have no clue. I don't have the documents on that. I only have wartime production. Also WRA was providing A5 cases to other countries. I have no clue how many were shipped, bc I didn't pull those orders. But I know they shipped them to other countries. So that is a lot of unkowns to try to say exactly what any of these cases are absolute.

    Now this is my other problem. I do believe the Mariens did have some eight loop cases, but I think they had a lot of different variations of cases, and way too many to prove 100 years later, what was used when and how. And say even if you have a named case with a hit to a WWI Marine. How do you know if it's not a soldier with the same name, a civilian, or someone in another country. Or someone shady didn't fake the name altogether. See what i'm saying?

    This is the other thing and what was discussed in the post that Clintonhater brought up. I found the actual A5 contracts for the Marines. I located them at a private archives, then Andrew Stolinksi found thousands more of sniper docs at the National Archives.

    Anymore I believe in what I can prove. This is the only rock solid description of a Marine contract A5 case I have ever located. Like I said I do believe some 8 loops were used. A couple WWI era pics have been posted of 8 loops. But I disagree where the pics are stated to have been taken.

    In the actual contract the overall lenght is said to be 16 1/4'' and it mentions it has six loops to attach the web strap. It was argued in the post above that they meant the body of the scope case had 6 loops and the cap had another 2. For a grand total of 8. Instead of my argument that the whole scope case had a total of six loops. But no one compared the actual measurements. I didn't have the cases at the time to measure but have since got the measurements.

    First the original document I located at the Achives. It says the length is 16 1/4'' and it has six loops.




    Here is a 6 loop case and 8 loop case side by side, notice the 6 loop is not form fitted and simplier to manufacture. IT looks like wartime production and most telling it is shorter.





    Here is the body of the 8 loop case. That was the argument above. That the document meant 6 loops on the body, and 2 on the cap. Even thought it doesn't say that in the document. But the argument was they meant 2 more on the cap for a total of 8. But when you measure the body of the 8 loop case, the overall lenght is 17 1/4''. With the cap I measure 17 1/2''. It is over an inch too long for the Marine contract. Here is the measurement of a 8 loop case body.






    Here is actually a 6 loop case, 4 loops on the body, 2 on the cap. For a total of six. It is named on the inside to a name that matches a WWI Marine from Missouri. But again it could have been a name of a soldier, or civilian. Who knows? Just because it matches a Marine name, I cannot prove 100% it was a Marine case. But it is the correct 16 1/4" lenght that is mentioned in the Marine docs. And it has the 6 loops mentioned in the docs. But like I said the Army got these 6 loop cases too, I can prove it 100%. I have the docs. So the MArine document above is NOT IN ANYWAY EXCLUSIVE to the Marines.


    Last edited by cplnorton; 07-29-2017 at 03:12.

  5. #5
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    I know the info above is a lot, I'm just hoping to clear up the air on this whole case discussion with the actual measurements of the cases and the original document.

    The takeaway on this is, the Marines probalby had a lot of variations of cases over the years. But not one was ever exclusive to just the Marines. So what would make it a Marine case is if you could prove the name on it was a Marine. Now how do you prove it is 100% applied by a Marine?

    It's a grey area I guess what I'm saying. The case above might be legit, but I just don't ever feel comfortable anymore on this stuff saying anything absolute it's Marine. These cases were used by everyone.

    But what I would do first, I was trying to read the name and my eyes suck. What is it? Let me check the Marine rosters to see if there is a match. Again that's not to say a Army Soldier didn't have the same initals and last name, or even a civilian. That's just my point in all this.

    But it's for sure a WWI era WRA A5 case. I just disagree if anyone says it's a for sure USMC one. Even with a hit to the name to a Marine.

  6. #6
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    I've never posted this or told anyone other than my friends this. This is why it gest so confusing for some people. Because this has never been made public before. What I'm saying nothing is exclusive to the Marines. Everything the Marines got from WRA including the A5 snipers, the Army got as well.

    But this is the actual Marine and Army contracts side by side. These are just two to show the they are identical. The one on the left is the MArine, the one on the right is Army. Both of these contracts did ship, but on different dates. They were just ordered on the same date.

    But I wanted to show they are identical, just going to different places, and billed to the different branches and these were different WRA contract numbers. Here in a second I will take a 6 loop case and compare every single measurement on these contracts to show it matches this contract.

    [IMG][/IMG]

  7. #7
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    Lets just go measurement by measurement, just so there is no confusion. And you can tell from looking at the pic above that this case is different dimensions than the 8 loop case. Numbers are taken off the Army and Marine Sniper Sniper Case contracts above.

    Overall Length 16 1/4''. 6 leather loops to attach web strap



    Inside diameter at base 1 7/8''



    inside Diameter at Top 2 1/2''



    Leather Cap 2 7/8" Diameter




    Leather Cap 2 1/4'' deep


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    Until it's been determined that the man was in the service during the years A5 were being issued, the cart is getting way ahead of the horse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Len View Post
    A friend of mine recently came across a WWI era case for the Winchester A5 scope. There are no markings on the piece apart from a name that's stenciled on the carrying strap. We've been told that this type of case was used by the USMC in WWI. Is there a list of Marine snipers from that period? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
    Could you post the spelling of the last name on the case? Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cplnorton View Post
    I know the info above is a lot, I'm just hoping to clear up the air on this whole case discussion with the actual measurements of the cases and the original document....
    I think the only person confused may be you. You have absolute faith in a document found in the archives, yet you deny the extant examples by claiming them to be fakes. A document is just that, a piece of paper. You are unable, or incapable, of explaining the existence of the many existing examples of 8-loop "Penguin" scope cases, most of them inked to actual living Marine WWI snipers, with some of them traceable back to the families that originally sold them. You claim that no "Penguin" scope cases were ordered - where in your one document does it so state? Better yet, where are the hundreds of 6-loop scope cases you claim the Marines used?

    No one disputes your document, it is what it is. Despite that document, the existing scope cases tell a different story, and I believe my eyes over any document, and so will most of those who read these posts. And the dimensions? What is the dispute over dimensions?

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