1904 Spandau GEW 98

[John Ed]

Need Direction on this rifle.
A young man at my church brought it by for me to look at. His Dad is in the home repair business and someone gave it to him.
Surface rust on most of it with some pitting. Bore is good. Stock is good with several inspector/proof stamps.

My Question is Where to look for detailed info ?
Also would it be safe to shoot 8mm mauser ammo ?

This young man is 15 yrs old and a Great kid. We shoot often.
His parents are a positive influence on him and he respects us "Old Farts".

He will be one who will make a lifetime hobby of firearms. He has the historical interest but also wants to be a shooter.

I am just not a Mauser Guy so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
John Ed

[dave]

Picture would help and perhaps a better description. If the receiver or barrel has a large S on it (in the area they meet) it has been converted to use the larger .323 m/m bullet, from the .318 m/m. Check if the serial numbers match on bolt & receiver, if all the numbers on all parts match it may be worth some real money and he may want to reconsider shooting it. There is no reason to think it is unsafe to shoot but it can always be tried tied down to a tire using a string for trigger. Then check m/t case for signs of over pressure. Go to Gunboards Forums and there will be couple of discussion threads there on Mausers and Gew.98's. Or 'Google' G-98's, altho there may be a lot of mis-info there! Start with US commercial 8 m/m ammo, it is loaded down from military foreign 8 m/m, some of which can be very hot, and old!

[John Ed]

Thanks !!

I will pass the info on to him. Maybe suggest that he join this forum and post pictures

Really appreciate info.

John Ed

[jon_norstog]

The G98 should be OK with .323 ammo. The changeover to the larger bore was in 1895, and the updated spitzer bullet became standard in 1903. The rifle may or may not have aN "S" stamped on it.

My experience with the G98 is it will string vertically the first few shots, then when the barrel warms up will group very close indeed, 8-10" above the point of aim at 100 yards.

Good luck!

jn

[dave]

The change over to larger bore was not 1895, before G.98 even existed. (typo?) The change came much later (1905?). Existing rifles were not re-bored either, only the chamber throats were relived to allow the case to expand and release the bullet easier, this kept pressure within limits. Those rifles WERE stamped with an S. The S stamp was used for some years after new rifles with larger bores were being manufactured.

[bruce]

Good bore and chamber? Date reflects period long after change over, etc. Fire away! Sincerely. bruce.

[dave]

Olson page 104, 3rd. ed. states 'the second change occurred in the 1904-05 period, grooves were deepened to .0065" so rifling would be proper size for the .323 spritzer bullet'. Page 130---'the S cartridges was adopted in the 1904-05 period'.
So why do you people keep saying the change over was much earlier?? It was not, it was 04-05!! Other authors say the same.

[jon_norstog]

The change over to larger bore was not 1895, before G.98 even existed. (typo?) The change came much later (1905?). Existing rifles were not re-bored either, only the chamber throats were relived to allow the case to expand and release the bullet easier, this kept pressure within limits. Those rifles WERE stamped with an S. The S stamp was used for some years after new rifles with larger bores were being manufactured.

Supposedly the 1895 change involved deepening the grooves to .323" but leaving the lands at the same diameter as the original "I" ("J") cartridge. Part of the confusion comes from the 8x57 round being in use by so many militaries, in the Commission rifles as well as in Mausers, it may be there are multiple dates of adoption for the change. A lot of the primary source documents are probably gone, so later writers may be working off of secondary sources. This is a job for 5MF!

jn

[5MadFarmers]

Supposedly the 1895 change involved deepening the grooves to .323" but leaving the lands at the same diameter as the original "I" ("J") cartridge. Part of the confusion comes from the 8x57 round being in use by so many militaries, in the Commission rifles as well as in Mausers, it may be there are multiple dates of adoption for the change. A lot of the primary source documents are probably gone, so later writers may be working off of secondary sources. This is a job for 5MF!

jn

Neither Mauser nor 8mm. Prussian Commission 7.92mm. Mauser had nothing to do with it. Loewe did. Loewe owned Mauser.

Just a technical trivia point...

Original barrel was 7.90mm x 8.10mm. Jacket were stripping from bullets.
Depth was deepened to 7.90 X 8.15mm in 1896. Barrels made after this are "Z" coded.
Next change took place when the new bullet/case was introduced. 7.89mm X 8.20mm.

Using our measurements:
Barrel 1888: .318898. People like to round this to .318. Clearly it rounds to .319.
Barrel 1896: .3208661. People round this to .321.
Barrel Spitzer: .322835. People round that to .323.

German standard for '88 bullet was 8.08mm. Spitzer is 8.20mm.

'88 cartridge case is same length as later edition. Body throats from 10.86mm to 8.78mm at stepdown. Then 8.78mm to 8.62mm at neck. Later one goes from 10.84mm to 8.91mm. Then 8.91mm to 8.72mm at neck.

Gew88 rifles were rechambered for the new cartridges. Barrels weren't changed as it wasn't necessary - the case dimension change was the issue. It's not recommended to shoot the 8.20mm "Spitzer" in barrels with the shallow grooves (8.10mm) but the 8.15mm edition, introduced in 1896, is fine; which is why they didn't bother punching them out at all. Even the '88 bullet had problems in the shallow groove 8.10mm but that had more to do with the bullet jacket design.

People often conflate barrel and chamber differences. It's the chamber differences which were the important bit.

[5MadFarmers]

Part 2.

GEW88s have two barrel dimensions but one chamber dimension.
GEW98s, when introduced, used the second barrel and chamber dimension from the GEW88s.

Chamber pressures were reduced in 1899.

When the new cartridge was introduced the chamber pressure was stepped up to about half-way between the first and second edition of the '88 cartridge.
Chamber dimensions were redone on rifles - both early GEW98s and late GEW88s. Which had the same dimensions.

All of which brings us to OP's rifle.
If the barrel is .321 it's the early GEW98 barrel dimensions. Which won't matter.
It's, again, the chamber dimension which matters. If it's chambered for the '88 cartridge it's wrong. I'd consider it very unlikely as they redid them. Very very unlikely.

Chamber versus barrel. Barrels on first generation GEW98 and second generation GEW88s, being the same, are slightly smaller than the later GEW98s. The Germans clearly felt this wasn't significant as they ignored it. The chamber dimensions changed. They clearly felt this mattered as they addressed it.

Stick a cartridge in it. Pull the trigger with a strap. If the case is hard to extract you probably have the early chambering. Very unlikely. That is how it'd show up.

The "positive feed" addition addressed sticky cases. Sole purpose it was introduced. GEW88s received new bolt heads for that exact thing.

Hope that helped. Kind of detailed but many will point to barrel dimensions being a big deal. Nope. Chamber dimensions were. Ergo the Germans addressing one and not the other.