A further "pointed" look at my 1895 Winchester-Lee

[5MadFarmers]

Anthony C. Daum & Charles W. Pate, "U.S. Military Arms Inspector Marks", have W.B.W. (Whittelsey) inspecting rifles purchased by the Navy from Winchester, in April, 1898, to replace rifles destroyed in the N.Y. Navy Yard fire.

Yes, I'm aware of Tony's work. When he passed it was turned over to Mr. Pate to finish. Mr. Hosmer is represented and uncredited.

Sharing emails is a no no. Unless one party is no longer alive perhaps.



Inspector bingo is an interesting game.

Adams, George H.
Adams, Halsey H.
Adams, J. Sumner
Adams, James H.
Adams, John H.
Aiken, Manley A.
Alden, Adin
Alden, James
Alexander, Henry
Alexander, Philip B.

Some of the fine gentlemen that made your Krag. If it's an early one.

Abell, Anthony
Alexander, Charles L.
Alexander, Henry
Ainsworth, George J.
Alberts, Orven
Alden, Joel M.
Adams, Willard O.
Adams, George H.
Adams, Halsey H.
Adams, J. Sumner
Adams, John H.

Some of the fine gentlemen that made your Krag. If it's a later one.

Abbott, Lester M.
Adams, Charles
Adams, Halsey H.
Adams, John
Adams, John H.
Adams, J. Sumner
Adams, Leonard H.
Adams, William
Addison, William
Adriance, Edward E.
Adriance, Herbert K.

Some of the fine gentlemen that made your M-1903. Assuming WW1.

Abair, Edward L.
Abare, John
Abbe, Earl H.
Abendroth, Henry J.
Abrahamson, Arthur F.
Adam, John
Adamczyk, Wanda Mrs
Adams, George B.
Adams, Herbert J.
Adams, Joseph D. Jr.
Adriance, Earl E.

Some of the fine people that made your M1 rifle. Assuming it's an early WW2 SA rifle.

Abbot, Harry C.
Ackerly, Calvin
Adam, Walter G.
Adams, J.Sumner
Ahearn, Charles J.
Ainslie, Percy
Albert, B.C.
Alexander, Everett
Alvord, Edward B.
Ammonsen, John F.
Anderson, Andrew F.

Some of the fine people who inspected your ordnance gear in WW1. Guns, gun parts, holsters, scabbards, etc. Find the company. Find the inspector for that location. Play bingo.

1918 was a mighty fine year. Carr was being paid $5 per day. Ole' J. Sumner was at $4.80. Carroll (TCC on RIA stuff) was making $6.40. Chambers at Eddystone was paid a yearly salary instead. William Dinsmoor up in Boston was pulling in $3K per year. That's good money.

"Earl house." Where Mssrs Thompson and Hobbs boarded as they inspected the guns made in Providence in 1864.

"Ellis, Goffe, Griffith." Among the many wonderful inspectors in New Haven in 1864.

Yes, I know how Inspector Bingo is played.

[5MadFarmers]

Sorry for the hijack Rick but I'm going to finish that.

There is an arm, circa 1861-1865 war, with a cartouche. Every reference lists the same person for that cartouche. Which is a problem.
Three decades later there was a court case. The contract inspectors who had been at that factory testified. They handily provided the complete names of all the inspectors that had been there.
One of those listed was a direct hit for the initials on that cartouche.
It wasn't the man listed in the standard references.
Who wasn't listed by them as having been there.
I was given a free lesson in inspector bingo.

When I put out the "people" volume it'll have the games pieces for people to play bingo. I suspect I'm not going to play bingo myself - just let others do it.



Entire workforce. Year after year after year. With jobs and such. One sheet per last name letter. Follow them through their working career.

That, by the way, was a lot of work. There's an understatement. Other places were done differently. Format needs to fit data.

Keeps me amused.

Butlerdude? You've stated a few times that Porter was the last master armorer at SA.



In that list is the last Master Armorer at Springfield Armory. Note that Porter isn't in the list.

It's called Bingo.

Except on that one I didn't have to play bingo. Page 101 in the good book. On page 101 it looks so effortless. Sometimes there is quite a bit behind that effortlessness.

[5MadFarmers]

Sorry Rick, one more.

Anthony Daum. I'm somewhat aware of the amount of work Tony put into that work. That cannot be diminished. It was an incredible amount of work. Sadly he passed on before finishing it. I noticed when his collection hit the block and it was a nice collection. So R.I.P. Tony. I'm sure he was very aware of the number of people that would benefit from his work. People buying ancient guns with barely readable cartouches could in fact not have to guess at what the initials were.

I understand that. I've encountered sellers frequently claiming there is very faded writing on an item and, as it's so faded, it's not worth including a picture. What they're failing to grasp is there are people who have seen those markings so many times that they can tell you what it is. Like a faded JSA right? Tony's work will be invaluable in that.

Inspector Bingo is a fun game. Tony enjoyed it. He also dug and didn't just play bingo. We lost a valuable researcher in Mr. Daum.

====

Sorry for the hijacks Rick. Here, some guys with gloves made in Germany. Forgot where that came from.





From same place. Book or SA's photo collection. Forget which.

[Dick Hosmer]

In addition to being a very good researcher, Tony was fun to talk to, a really nice guy. He was kind enough to vet the Marksman's Rifle chapter in my upcoming book - Tony had probably forgotten more about that model than most people ever knew. I was flattered that he changed very little, but certainly fleshed out the narrative. I miss him.

[Rick the Librarian]

No apologies necessary, 5Mad, I've enjoyed reading them, especially Dan's - now THAT was interesting! And for you to run into your classmate!!In FRANCE!! I've had a few of those happen to me, although I admit both of you have me beat!!

[Rick the Librarian]

...and thanks, gentlemen for the "rabbit trail" on inspectors! I find, I often learn more from rabbit trails than from the original discussion of the topic!

However, back to the "matter at hand". I did what I should have done and read the section in Myszkowski's book on bayonets. One interesting fact is that the early bayonets were numbered and were supposed to be numbered to the rifles. I wonder what bureaucrat came up with that??

He mentioned that some later bayonets made by Remington had inspection stamps, some had serial numbers and some had both (in addition, of course, to the "Remington" stamp in the fuller). I found out exactly where to look for the serial on my bayonet (the back of the pommel) and took a look - sure enough there was a serial number - 18794 (see photo), indicating that this was a later bayonet. The author mentions that some bayonets with a serial number over 15,000 have appeared. It appears this bayonet was one of the last group manufactured by Remington, considerably after April, 1898.

It is interesting to me that, while not an obvious "match" to my rifle, it appears to have been manufactured in the same general time period (My rifle's serial number is 19099)

IMG_4987 (1024x686).jpg

[butlersrangers]

RTL - Thanks for sharing details and pictures of your very nice Winchester - Lee rifle and Remington made W-L bayonet.

Your contributions are always interesting, gentlemanly, and make for an interesting read and discussion.

[Rick the Librarian]

My pleasure ...a Navy Winchester Lee was a dream of mine doing back a number of years. A friend sold it to me at a very good price. I'll never shoot it, but a fascinating rifle to look at the study.

[Dan Shapiro]

I'll never shoot it

Good idea, considering no one makes the ammo anymore. Interesting article about the safety of the Win-Lee Navy, and modifying 30-40 Krag cartridge cases.

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/win...e-navy-safety/

[5MadFarmers]

One interesting fact is that the early bayonets were numbered and were supposed to be numbered to the rifles.

Makes sense.

I found out exactly where to look for the serial on my bayonet (the back of the pommel) and took a look - sure enough there was a serial number - 18794 (see photo)

That did get me curious. Looked for my bayonet. Couldn't find it. Found my tape dispenser though. I need to lose something else and look for it to find the bayonet. I have a second Winchester-Lee, incomplete, but can't find that either. I was going to see what the serial was.



Middle gun is missing some pieces. If it starts bugging me I'd be more inclined to buy another gun. Cheaper than what people get for parts.

Navy, Navy, Army, "Military", Prototype for "Military". Unless I confused the early army and navy but I don't think I did as the army is the harder to find and that one is missing pieces.

Winchester-Lee is low 3K range with Twining's mark.
Remington-Lee .30 is Michigan range.