Sniper rifles in private hands ???

[1903fan]

It sure is great having so many people in here to tackle the specifics! Thanks for clarifying for the troops, Marine A5 sniper rifle JT!

[cplnorton]

Jim,

What pic are you refererring to of a Marine with a 6'' on center spacing rifle? I remember one you showed me a year ago, but he was not a Marine.

I will wait to comment on the rest until John does, out of respect.

[John Beard]

Jim,

Thanks for your reply!

Please pardon my lack of clarity. My questions pertained explicitly to the scope BLOCKS which mount on the rifle, not the rings. Permit me to re-phrase my questions.

(1) I am familiar with the tapered Mann-Neidner block that was adopted and used by the USMC during WWI. Did the USMC also adopt an alternative non-tapered scope block for the Winchester A5 scope during WWI?

(2) If the answer to question (1) is Yes, then who made and/or installed these scope blocks on M1903 rifles?

(3) If the answer to question (1) is Yes, was the rear scope block mounted on the receiver ring? If not, where was the rear scope block mounted?

(4) It is well-documented that Adolph Neidner personally mounted some of his tapered blocks on M1903 rifles for the USMC during WWI. Did anyone one else besides Neidner also mount Mann-Neidner style tapered blocks on M1903 rifles for the USMC during WWI? And if so, who?

Please advise. Thanks for your answers and your patience.

J.B.

Jim,

Since you asked, here's how I would answer the questions I posed based on information, reports, and records I have on file.

(1) Yes.

(2) WRA.

(3) Yes.

(4) Yes. USMC armorers at Philadelphia.

I respect and appreciate the answers you provided. I have no intention of challenging your answers or stirring up controversy. Take it for what it's worth.

J.B.

p.s.,

And I express my thanks to cplnorton for his generosity and willingness to share!

p.p.s.,

I have little doubt that the USMC may have had some shooting team rifles fitted with A5 scopes mounted on 6" centers that were pressed into service when the U.S. entered WWI. But those rifles were pre-existing and not wartime production.

[cplnorton]

For the record, my answers to John's questions would be identical to what John just stated. John and I conducted our own independent research of this topic and came up to the same conclusions about the use of the blocks for the Marine Corps 1903. But to be completely honest he had figured it out before I started to research it, I just was able to hit some new locations looking for more info on it.

I as well am not interested in fighting this out either anymore. It's just pointless as people will believe what they want. And I know John has a lot of time invested in this reseach as well. And it's not fair for me to just throw it out and detail it, when I know what he has invested in this as well.

My only challenge is if a picture of Marine with 6'' spacing exists. Tim Plowman cleaned out the Marine team photo section at the archives. There were a lot of team pics in there, and it's the same ones you see in the Man at Arms, Marine Gazette, or any Marine magazine pre WWI. Bascially anything officially taken, every team photograph is in that location. The first Telescopic sight photo of a Marine team rifle isn't until after WWI.

So if a picture exists of a Marine team rifle with 6'' spacing, it would have to be some type of unofficial photo, like a private photo or something like that.

So I am very curious if a photo exists of a Marine with 6'' on center spacing. I seriously doubt one exists.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Jim,

Since you asked, here's how I would answer the questions I posed based on information, reports, and records I have on file.

(1) Yes.

Are you saying there was a third type of A3 base utilized by the Corps in WWI other than the two sets of bases used prior to the war that fit the unaltered Win A5 #2 mounts? The reason I ask is that if one considers the unaltered #2 mount as having a receptacle that fits/clamps over a base that screws to the receiver, and one does not change the receptacle, the only dimension that can change for a new set of bases is the height of the base. I cannot fathom a reason to make a base higher than the base that was being used on 7.2" centers.

(2) WRA.

If such a base was made, it seems reasonable that WRA made it since it is their scope.

(3) Yes.

Seems reasonable. I think I see where this is going.

(4) Yes. USMC armorers at Philadelphia.

All I have read indicates the armory at Philly was created after WWI. Do you have specific information that states otherwise?

I respect and appreciate the answers you provided. I have no intention of challenging your answers or stirring up controversy. Take it for what it's worth.

J.B.

This is a forum, and I always take it for what it is worth. I hope discussing specific issues isn't considered too controversial.

John, you seem to be indicating the "Marine Mounts" as depicted by the WRA drawing in Brophy as having been adopted during WWI. If so, how do you account for the 1903's with A5's on 7.2" centers that existed before the war?

I have little doubt that the USMC may have had some shooting team rifles fitted with A5 scopes mounted on 6" centers that were pressed into service when the U.S. entered WWI. But those rifles were pre-existing and not wartime production.

Actually, that isn't what I stated. I do not think team rifles were ever required to be pressed into service. The Corps had sufficient newly constructed sniper rifles without having to use old team rifles. The 150 Niedner rifles would have met the 4th Brigade's needs quite handily, and the first WRA order of 500 rifles met the needs of OSD.

[John Beard]

Are you saying there was a third type of A3 base utilized by the Corps in WWI other than the two sets of bases used prior to the war that fit the unaltered Win A5 #2 mounts? The reason I ask is that if one considers the unaltered #2 mount as having a receptacle that fits/clamps over a base that screws to the receiver, and one does not change the receptacle, the only dimension that can change for a new set of bases is the height of the base. I cannot fathom a reason to make a base higher than the base that was being used on 7.2" centers.

I'm not sure I understand your question, and I don't know how to answer it.

All I have read indicates the armory at Philly was created after WWI. Do you have specific information that states otherwise?

I have information that strongly suggests otherwise.

John, you seem to be indicating the "Marine Mounts" as depicted by the WRA drawing in Brophy as having been adopted during WWI. If so, how do you account for the 1903's with A5's on 7.2" centers that existed before the war?

I do not indicate that the "Marine Mounts" were adopted DURING WWI. I have reason to believe the "Marine Mounts" were adopted BEFORE WWI.

J.B.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

....I do not indicate that the "Marine Mounts" were adopted DURING WWI. I reason to believe the "Marine Mounts" were adopted BEFORE WWI.

J.B.

I agree.

jt