WWI Sniper Scope Cases

[clintonhater]

What's more interesting to me than when the work was done was his wife's remark that "he doesn't mean what he says," which, combined with the reference to "German clubs," suggests he did not fear to conceal his distain for Wilson's program of demonizing "the Huns"--propaganda as vicious as anything produced by the Third Reich. Was that why he was being investigated by the FBI in the first place?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

That is my understanding. Niedner was an old Indian fighter and was Mayor of his town, and proud of his German heritage. He had many influential friends, and was considered a nice guy. I guess he let his mouth overload his brain.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Neidner also converted several rifles for the Marines in August/September 1916. This is proven again in the Neidner Journal.

To me TDP0311's point that it's possible rifles left with the 5th Regiment, is very feasible. I don't think anyone can prove otherwise at this point.

Those individuals were both Distinguished shooters on the Marine Rifle team. They were not snipers.

Jim

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

....It especially raises arguments when you say that the 8 loop was the Marine contract, when the WRA docs specifically state it was a 6 loop....

I never said there was a contract for an 8-loop case.

Jim

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Well Jim, I have to admit I'm lost with this discussion.

So am I.

....This is Neidner's own handwriting from his June 1917 Ledger. He put down the date of June 1st as the date. July 13th he went back and marked it was paid. This is confirmed by flipping over to Neidner's seperate CASH journal, and looking at the date July 13th 1917 which again says he was paid $1500 by the Marine Corps. The FBI went looking for Neidner on June 28th 1917, and he was already gone from the Philadlephia Depot. So he didn't work on these rifles from June 1st to July 13th. That is not correct at all.

I believe you have a valid interpretation of this issue. Michael Petrov and I both just assumed Niedner was referring to the time interval of his work and never gave it much thought, but further examination on my part supports your version more so than mine. On the grand scheme of things, it makes little difference, since the goal was, and is, to identify and locate the rifles; but I believe you are correct. What this tells me is the Corps never had any intention of awarding the 500 rifle contract to Niedner, as he thought.

Jim

[clintonhater]

What this tells me is the Corps never had any intention of awarding the 500 rifle contract to Niedner, as he thought.

Jim

Why did one of the most eminent custom gunsmiths in the country NEED the red tape of a gov't contract? Especially when he was going to have to leave his home to execute it.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Why did one of the most eminent custom gunsmiths in the country NEED the red tape of a gov't contract? Especially when he was going to have to leave his home to execute it.

If you look at Niedner's ledger, $1,500 was a huge sum of money for the man. Philadelphia is about 320 miles from Malden, so it wasn't so far away. The powers that were running the Corps sniper program needed, or better yet, wanted the Mann-Niedner mounts for the rifle, so Niedner was the ticket. At the time Niedner was doing the mounts, time really was no big issue. There is a Niedner ledger entry where the Corps paid him $140. I believe that was payment for the use of the M-N mounts on the remaining rifles assembled by WRA, but I have no proof of same. Although I assume one exists, I have not seen a patent for the Mann-Niedner base.

jt

[cplnorton]

At this time Neidner was a small time gunsmith. He mostly did work for organizations around the Massachusetss area. He worked out of a small garage at his house, so that is why it became necessary to go to the Philly Depot to accomplish a larger work order.

It doesn't say the exact date, but in the middle of June it appears when he was done with the Marine contract he went out drinking. While drunk he talked with 3 guys and made some comments that he just had finished converted rifles for the military and he hoped the people who used his rifles would be killed or something like that. He was a German Immigrant, so the 3 guys contacted the FBI and told them he said this. Which the FBI was concerned he might have potentially sabotaged the rifles.

That is why the FBI was interviewing everyone around him, and you see the comment from his wife.

But that is what launched the investigation into Neidner and they were actively contacting Philadelphia Depot with concerns that Neidner might have sabotaged the sniper rifles on June 28th 1917. This I'm sure is what actually cancelled his contract. I imagine if the FBI tells you they are investigating him for sabotaging those rifles, the Marines weren't going to have him back to do more. So you then see four days later the Marines call Winchester and have them contracted to finish the remaining rifles. Which Winchester was not ready for this contract it seems at all, and you see them seem sort of concerned about it.

The blocks were not patented by Neidner. They were pattented by Dr. Franklin Mann. The same person who the Mann Acccuracy devices are named after. He did record breaking studies on ammo accuracy at the turn of the century and was really quite famous at the time. He is the one who owned all the patents to these tapered blocks. But he passed away in 1916. All the records from back then state that since Mann and Niedner had worked together many times and were friends, he continued to use Mann's blocks after he passed. But I have never found any evidence at all that Neidner gained legal control of these patents after he died though. So I do not beleive Neidner would have even been legally able to sell those rights.

But this is why also the blocks are also named Mann- Neidner blocks. Because they were created by Dr. Mann, and used by Neidner on his rifles. But this is OUR name today we call them. That is not what they were called back then. They were not called Marine blocks, or special Marine Blocks or anything like that. In fact Neidner used them on all his rifles, so these were not exclusive to the Marines.

But back then the official names of these blocks were Mann Tappered blocks. The Marines only called them Tappered blocks.

As far as WRA using the Mann Neidner blocks, everything I have read on the WRA side and the actual Marine documents. I am pretty convinced that Winchester did not use the Mann Neidner blocks. All the detailed contracts and even the actual Wincehster pictures from this time show them using another block that they had named the Springfield Marine Block. But I don't want to get in this argument at this time. lol I'm emotionally spent on all whole discussion already. So I'm not going to get into it. But I honeslty didn't find anything that makes me think that WRA used a Mann Neidner tappered block desing. Everything pointed to one WRA had actually created which they named Marine. That is why all the confusion. Everyone has always assumed the Mann Neidner was the Marine blocks, when Winchester had their own design they named Marine. The whole confusion of all this, is a play on words.

Brophy was onto this I think. And you can sort of pick some of this in his book. He just didn't have the Marine side documents which I think would have probably pushed him over the edge about it.

It's like Trench Gun shotguns. You will never find anywhere back then they called them Trench Guns. That is our collector name for them. Back then they were called Riot Guns with Bayonet adaptor. Many times people confuse the terms we call stuff now and assume they called them the same back then. They didn't.

But like I said I don't want to get in that fight right now.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

....But that is what launched the investigation into Neidner and they were actively contacting Philadelphia Depot with concerns that Neidner might have sabotaged the sniper rifles on June 28th 1917. This I'm sure is what actually cancelled his contract.

Are you saying Niedner had a contract for all the rifles initially?

But back then the official names of these blocks were Mann Tappered blocks. The Marines only called them Tappered blocks.

I can provide a document from the period where the Marines refer to them as "taper block Marine Corps type". The following is from a Marine Corps document. (The system will not let me post the clip - will try again later).

As far as WRA using the Mann Neidner blocks, everything I have read on the WRA side and the actual Marine documents. I am pretty convinced that Winchester did not use the Mann Neidner blocks. All the detailed contracts and even the actual Wincehster pictures from this time show them using another block that they had named the Springfield Marine Block.

How do you explain all the modified scopes having Mann-Neidner bases? I'm not sure what pictures to which you refer, but I would love to see a picture of a WWI USMC documented sniper rifle without Mann-Niedner bases.

Everyone has always assumed the Mann Neidner was the Marine blocks, when Winchester had their own design they named Marine. The whole confusion of all this, is a play on words.

The "Marine Springfield Mount" is a block that is required to mount an A5 scope on 7.2" centers. All 03 rifles with scopes mounted on 7.2" centers use them to this day. They are not particular to the Corps, and every commercial gunsmith that mounted an A5 scope on 7.2" centers used those bases. If I recall, the WRA drawing of this base is dated 1925 or so.

Are you now conceding that WRA mounted the scopes and not the Philly Depot?

[cplnorton]

Are you saying Niedner had a contract for all the rifles initially?

That is exactly what the FBI report states.