WWI Sniper Scope Cases

[cplnorton]

You know when I get in this situation when I'm trying to figure stuff out. I just lay out my research and see the pattern. So Let's just lay out the names of the Marines on these cases and see where they were. We can't prove which case was shipped when. So lets see what the pattern is by the Marine. Because we can prove that. And we can also date them by the Rifle Serial number. We know when the rifle were built, so they can't be made before that date.

But Jim go ahead and post the names of the guys you said were in France and a pic of the case, and I will add them in as well and show all their details. That way we can just lay this all out.

But right now I know of six that are supposed to be out there. With only three that I have seen pics of. One of the six I imagine is a fake, and one of them, I don't know if it exists. I sort of doubt it. So I think we mostly going by 3 or 4 right now. The interesting part of all this, I can only prove two of these guys actually had anything to do with Snipers. Even though sniper school attendees are listed in the rosters, I only show Estock and LaValley being there and both were late. The others do not seem to have any connection with Sniper School.

1) Gunner Steve Estock- 8 loop, Rifle Serial 620XXX. I left out the last three. But it Looks like late 1917 he was attached to some Recruiting Div, Dec 1917 he is attached to the 125/126 Co 9th Regiment Cuba. He was in Cuba through April and transferred to the Supply Detachment Quantico on May 2nd 1918. Then in June 1918 he transfers to the Overseas Depot Quantico VA. Then I show him being a instructor at Sniper School between Aug 25th, 1918 till Sept 19th 1918. With some time on leave in there as well. Then on Sept 20th he transfers to the 11th Regiment.

2) Sgt Leslie La Valley- His career is almost identical to Gunner Estocks. But I have never seen a case attributed to him. I think someone said once there was one, but I have never seen it. I have only seen a rifle range book with a 671720 serial and it also says Cuba on the book. Which he left Cuba in early May 1918, so the book had to date before then. Which since I have been pulling rifle serials from the archives, there are a lot of regular service rifle serials in this 670 range. And it would have been a very tight timeframe to get a WRA Sniper rifle to Cuba before early May 1918.

3) Adolph A. Groupe- (6 loop) No rifle serial number listed. Brophy Boook . I do not ever see him attending sniper school. Looks like he started with the 101st at San Diego in late 1917. Early 1918 and basically till the end of the war he was with the 102nd Co Naval Ammunition Depot NY. Which seeing all the ammo testing they were doing with Telescopic sighted rifles, it might be possible he got it during this time. He joined the 11th Regiment on Nov 12, 1918. But I don't show any sniper schoool training for him.

4) Private G.C. Chandler (Senich book) Rifle Number 672932 Does not list 6 or 8 loop, but Senich says the USMC contract is 6 loop, commercial was 8. So it is possible this might be a 6 loop. But you would have to find it to be sure. Also Senich claims the name is G.C. Chandler. But I think Senich read it wrong, and the pic seems to show a C.C. as well. And the only match during the war is to a C.C Chandler. But private Clarence enlisted very late, June 1918. He spent Aug 1918 working at a Supply Company, Parris Island. Then it shows him Oct through at least Feb 1919 as being attached to the Rifle Range Detachment Parris Island. So he could have got that case there. I do not show him ever attending any Sniper School.

5) "Damerow" (Senich Book) Rifle Serial Number 673181 not pictued only detailed. But I find no Damerow's that served during WWI. So it might be fake, or some other explanation.

6) M.H. Van Camp (8 loop) Rifle 645991 case from Julia Auction. June 5th, 1917 Enlisted, spent till July, 1918 at the Marine Barracks Naval Yard New York, July 5th 1918 He joined the Headquarters Overseas Depot Quantico VA, and August 26th, 1918 He is transferred to Co. M 3rd BN 13th Regiment. I do not show him attending a sniper school in the rosters.

[JWM]

Thanks for the answer, Steve. My question was simply one of many thoughts I had once I finished reading the exchange of comments. You are probably correct in that the 6 and 8 loop are not being confused.

Brophy mentions in his book that the Marine WWI A5 telescopes were carried in brown leather cases that had a web shoulder strap, and that he has seen examples of them with his own case being marked Pvt. A.A. Groupe. He further states that black leather carrying cases were furnished with post-WWI telescopes purchased by the Marine shooting teams. Additionally, he makes note that the Winchester commercial carrying case had decorative tooling and eight leather loops for the strap, whereas the Marine type case had only six loops.

Judging from the above information one might draw the following conclusions:

1 - That the 6-loop Marine carrying case was not available to Marines until after WWI.

2 - That during WWI, Marines carried their A5 scopes in brown 8-loop carrying cases.

In terms of the WRA document and the 1919 date concerning the 8-loop case, it might be possible that instead of 1919, it was 1909, which is about the time the A5 made its debut...but that's just a guess. What I would do here, Steve, is go to the Winchester Arms Collectors Association and ask them about the Winchester (commercial) A5 scope case as to when it was first advertised in the company's catalog along with any descriptive information. Someone there should certainly be able to help you about this subject.

As to when the shipment of the subject scopes to the Marines stopped: Way back in the cobwebs of my mind, I seem to recall that shortly after WWI, the Marines ordered a relatively large shipment of A5 scopes, but I could be wrong. Should this old memory be correct, it goes without saying that any A5 scopes the Marines had on hand before then would have been from an earlier order(s). I believe the two earlier generations of the Marine Van Orden family, was in on both deals to some extent...but here again, I'm working on some very old memories and long lost references.

James

[clintonhater]

What I would do here, Steve, is go to the Winchester Arms Collectors Association and ask them about the Winchester (commercial) A5 scope case as to when it was first advertised in the company's catalog along with any descriptive information.

Scope was first advertised in June, 1910, but not listed in the full catalog until 1911, an original copy of which I happen to have; case is priced, but not otherwise described. Until the end of production, Winchester catalogs reprinted exactly that same A5 copy, except that all references to the B models were deleted beginning with the 1918 catalog.

First cases were a pain to use, as both mounts had to be slid all the way up to the top of the case, the lower portion being a narrow tube only large enough for the scope tube.

[cplnorton]

No it's always nice to have people look over the same info. Sometimes people pick up things that someone else never thought of. It's always nice to brainstorm, and someday I might even find a document to prove you are right. You never know.

But what you are saying from Brophy's book, that is really similar to my thoughts as well. But I will add the Caveat that Brophy was knee deep into the WRA documents. It was very obvious when I first got the docs and started to compare them to his book. You could follow along to where Brophy was getting a lot of his info.

On the shipment of A5's post WWI, yeah the Winchester ledgers show a large shipment of Telescopic sights going to the Marines.

But I appreciate your insight on this. It's always nice to brainstorm!

[clintonhater]

...But I will add the Caveat that Brophy was knee deep into the WRA documents. It was very obvious when I first got the docs and started to compare them to his book. You could follow along to where Brophy was getting a lot of his info.

Very evident from his uncritical repetition of the "compensating errors" malarkey, dreamed-up not in an optics lab, but in Winchester's advertising dept. Had he run that story by an optics engineer, he could have laid that myth to rest, but instead he perpetuated it.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

....On the shipment of A5's post WWI, yeah the Winchester ledgers show a large shipment of Telescopic sights going to the Marines....

I suspect those scopes were never delivered. Troop strength after WWI dropped to 17,000 men by late 1919, early 1920. Considering they already had one scope for every 17-Marines in the Corps, why would they need more scopes? In 1939, the Corps still had about 900 A5 (type) scopes in storage (from the WWI sniping program). What happened to the additional "large shipment" of A5 scopes?

jt

[JWM]

No it's always nice to have people look over the same info. Sometimes people pick up things that someone else never thought of. It's always nice to brainstorm, and someday I might even find a document to prove you are right. You never know.

But what you are saying from Brophy's book, that is really similar to my thoughts as well. But I will add the Caveat that Brophy was knee deep into the WRA documents. It was very obvious when I first got the docs and started to compare them to his book. You could follow along to where Brophy was getting a lot of his info.

On the shipment of A5's post WWI, yeah the Winchester ledgers show a large shipment of Telescopic sights going to the Marines.

But I appreciate your insight on this. It's always nice to brainstorm!

Steve, I forgot to check my library. I have a set of books that are Winchester Catalogs that date from 1885 to 1918. I seldom use them at all, but this is what I found in them: The first catalog that the Winchester leather scope case appeared in was "CatalogueNo76 June 1910." It appeared in most all of their catalogs up through 1916, and there was only one description that did not change over this period of time, including the picture of the scope case in each catalog. Here's how they read: "Telescope Sight Case." as header. Description: "Winchester Telescope Sight Case, heavy russet leather, strap lock and handle." "List price, each....$3.50" End quotes.

The picture of this case looks very similar to the bottom case in Promo's attached thumbnails

Senich shows a picture of an 8-loop leather scope case on page 11 in his book U.S. Marine Corps Scout Sniper World War II and Korea and makes note that it is "Believed to be the 'Marine Corps standard' referenced in the Handbook of Ordnance Data (No. 1861) dated 15 November 1918...and commercial carrying case adapted for military use by the addition of a shoulder strap and loops for same."

Comments: Given that the Winchester commercial leather case pictured in the company catalogs during the subject time frame, could be made to look exactly like an 8 loop case with nothing more than "the addition of a shoulder strap and loops for same" being added to their standard commercial scope case and lid, in place of "the strap lock and handle" features, Senich appears to be correct in his statements, that look to support Brophy's statements as regards this subject as well.

Steve and Jim: The later shipment might have been Lyman 5-As rather than Winchester...my memory to this end is really bad. Steve, thanks for the info on the later shipment of Winchester scopes.

[cplnorton]

Senich shows a picture of an 8-loop leather scope case on page 11 in his book U.S. Marine Corps Scout Sniper World War II and Korea and makes note that it is "Believed to be the 'Marine Corps standard' referenced in the Handbook of Ordnance Data (No. 1861) dated 15 November 1918...and commercial carrying case adapted for military use by the addition of a shoulder strap and loops for same."

Steve and Jim: The later shipment might have been Lyman 5-As rather than Winchester...my memory to this end is really bad. Steve, thanks for the info on the later shipment of Winchester scopes.

I will have to check out Senich's book tomorrow when I have time. I haven't picked that one up in a long time either. But is Senich saying the A5 cases are referenced in the Nov 1918 Handbook of Ordnance? I have that Ordnance book and I'm pretty sure nothing is mentioned in there on the actual cases. It does have a little bit of info on the 1st Contract 500 order by WRA, but that is only about a paragraph. But I will get that one back out and look again, but I really don't think there was anything on cases in there.

On the Lyman 5A. Yeah Senich's book says that got some of the Lyman 5A scopes. Which those weren't made till like 1928/29, when Lyman bought out the WRA A5 design. But I think he is only basing that off the Frank Mallory Docs. The Docs that Frank found are not as complete as the ones you find now at the archives now. So I could see looking at the packet that Frank sold, one could assume they did buy some Lyman 5A's. But seeing the rest of the documents it really paints a different picture.

But I think where the confusion lies on those Lyman 5A's, is when you look at Frank's packet and those WWII Marine docs in there. The Terminology on the A5 is all over the place. Almost every document you see on the A5 in WWII, they seem to name it a different name. Like for example they call them Lyman 5A, Lyman A5, Winchester 5A, A5, A-5. Basically the terminology on the scopes is all over the place on the A5's. There is nothing uniform. And I personally think Senich was reading these documents and just figured since they used the Lyman 5A name, they had to have them.

But if you go to the archive now and pull the files for the Mariens from 1919 to 1940. It's pretty clear when you start reading those, that a Lyman 5A purchase never happened. Those records are pretty detailed of the Telescopic rifles in between the wars. And I have documents buying scopes from Fecker and Lyman. But none of the Lyman purchases were for the 5A.

I just think Senich was reading those WWII docs and just was confusing the terminology.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Please allow me to explore this post war shipment of A5 scopes (no 5A's until 1928). As I pointed out before, the Corps already had a scope for every 17-Marines in the Corps. That is excessive to say the least. The Corps I know didn't have enough field jackets in 1970 to equip every Marine. We trained with M-14's that were worn out, to be polite. I had a 5-digit SN M-14 that blew its bolt vertical during my Qualification. My spotter put it back together and handed it to me. It did not repeat its performance, but needless to say, my tension at every shot did not lend itself to a fine score (I had been tied with another Marine for the highest scores all week). If you tell me this same Corps ordered a bunch of scopes, not needed by any means, post war while trying to shelve all the extra equipment they had from the war (by starting an Ordnance Section at PD), I must admit to a certain degree of doubt. Scores of contracts were cancelled at war's end, bankrupting many businesses that had dealt with the government in good faith. Why would this contract not be cancelled? To what purpose were these scopes acquired?

We know the Corps had trained Marines to repair optics (and still do). They were fully capable of repairing any scope they had that malfunctioned. The Corps throws it away, you can be assured it is junk! The OSD trained snipers permeated the 11th and 13th Regiments, and were separated as soon as their feet touched mother earth after their return to the states (many had been retained to police Germany after the war). The 1150 or so scopes previously acquired were now surplus (only about twenty or thirty guys on the R&P Teams). What was the impetus for acquiring additional scopes? The attrition rate of scopes on R&P Teams was essentially nil. In 1939, the Corps had 875 (?) or so scopes in storage at PD. These scopes represent what remained of the WWI A5 scopes purchased to train the 400 or so 11th and 13th Regiment snipers who never went to war.

My point is this. The Corps certainly had no need for additional scopes, so why order more when contract cancellation was the post-war solution to government procurement issues. Where did these scopes go? They seem to have disappeared, if they ever existed at all. WRA had problems meeting the initial orders. Did they expand their work force to meet this particular demand? I don't think so. I do know there were Corps plans to order additional scoped rifles as OSD turned out trained snipers (475 in all), but that all came to a screeching halt on 11 Nov 1919.

Document or no document, I have my doubts they were ever delivered, if they represented additional scopes not ordered in the 1150 initially ordered. Could you be looking at the delivery of the last of the initial orders?

jt

[cplnorton]

I suspect those scopes were never delivered. Troop strength after WWI dropped to 17,000 men by late 1919, early 1920. Considering they already had one scope for every 17-Marines in the Corps, why would they need more scopes? In 1939, the Corps still had about 900 A5 (type) scopes in storage (from the WWI sniping program). What happened to the additional "large shipment" of A5 scopes?

jt

This is what I can find on it Jim. The contact was marked as completed by WRA in 1919 and they were paid for it. It was also not in the cancelled contracts that WRA detailed as the govt cancelled at the end of the war. So just cross referencing about three seperate areas in the WRA files on this file, everything shows it was paid for and shipped.

On the counts, to me the counts don't really work unless they got another shipment. There were a 150 rifles done by Niedner in 1917. And 500 mounted by WRA in 1918. So that is a possible 650 scopes total. I know from seeing the France documents, that they were having a lot of problems with the A5 sights breaking in France. A lot were unserviceable and going to a Depot over there for repair and they were doing all they could to salvage them. And it sounds like they were failing miserably. So it's unclear how many of the ones used in France even would have made it home. But it doesn't sound promising.

But right now you have a possibility of a max 650 scopes at the end of WWI and probably a lot less. But the count you are referring to was at the beginning of WWII, and that count was for (887) A5 scopes. Which the Marines detail they received in the last war.

But this is where it gets sort of interesting. In the Marine docs my buddy pulled, the 887 were just spare scopes by themselves. There is another count that I do not believe anyone is aware of yet. This count was at Philly for the amount of Telescopic rifles with sights attached in storage. This hasn't been published yet and I didn't find this one, so it's not mine to really say the details on.

But in a nutshell at the same time Philly did that count on 887 A5 scopes, there is another count on Telescopic equipped rifles with scopes that was also done at Philly. These were not rifle team rifles, as you can find inventory on the telescopic team rifles almost every year in the docs. And those rifles were seperate in all the docs, and very few in number. These just seem to be A5 scoped rifles with the scopes in storage and there were actually a good number of them. It also mentions around this time that Telescopic equipped rifles were issued out to the fleet. But I don't have a precise number on the ones issued as I do the ones in storage at Philly.

But already without figuring in the new ones my buddy found, there are more in WWII than WWI. So that shows they got some somewhere. But you figure in the ones my buddy found, with the 887, the ones that probably became unserviceable or were lost, and that 2nd contract with Winchester. The numbers really seem to add up. Then you figure in that from the WRA side they show paid for and shipped. So to me it just all adds up as they got that second contract.