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  1. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cplnorton View Post
    The Marines first order of leather cases from Winchester was for 650 leather cases. 500 for the WRA made snipers, 150 for the Mann Niedner rifles. So they ordered all the leather cases from Winchester, in the first shipment, for the 150 rifles Mann Niedner converted. So All Mann Niedner rifles should have had WRA leather cases that were in the Marines. Same as those Leather scope caps. They are Winchester, and they ordered extra to cover the Mann Niedner rifles.

    The black on the leather I would say is more likely dye. I have a orders for certains Marine units, that dyed all their leather gear black, at several times in Marine Corps History. I would suspect that case was most likely dyed by the Marines, at a later date, and did not leave WRA like that.
    I presume from your post that you continue to infer the WRA constructed sniper rifles did not have Mann-Niedner bases. I disagree. Further, I can prove you incorrect without any doubt whatsoever. Since neither of us is prepared to release to the public all our data, I suggest you and I pick a forum member we believe to be trustworthy and above board - and unbiased. We both must agree on the person picked. You present to this person your proof of your statements that the WRA rifles did not have Mann-Niedner bases, to include to where they were shipped and why, to whom they were shipped and why, when they were issued and to whom they were issued, to include pictorial proof of rifles and scope cases as issued to include serial number(s). A simple picture of a 1903 rifle in Marine Springfield bases won't cut it unless it is linked to an individual Marine with rifle serial number issued to him verified in some indisputable manner. Some vague document that can be interpreted a dozen different ways won't cut it. I, in turn, will send to this person proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that the first shipment of 350 WRA rifles had Mann_Niedner basis to include where they were shipped, to whom they were shipped, when they were issued, where they were issued, and to whom they were issued including pictures of the rifles along with their snipers, scopes and cases and other visual and documentary evidence to prove they had Mann-Niedner bases, and further prove the scope cases issued with the rifles were "Penquin" 8-loop scope cases.

    The person we pick must agree to hold all data he receives from us as confidential and not to be shared with anyone at any time now or in the future, nor in any publication. That person will evaluate all the data we each send and make a judgement as to which one of us is correct; and we, in turn, will both agree to abide by his judgement to the extent the loser agrees to quit expressing his opinion on this matter on any forum.

    Time to man-up.

    jt

  2. #102
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    Sounds like a fair idea for me, and much better than the Old West that would have seen y'all boys duel with pistols!

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    Van Wert, OH
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    Jim,

    lol, are you really serious? I have never had anyone try to challenge me to a "expert off." Which is sort of comical, but also sad at the same time.

    If someone says something that I know is not correct, I'm going to comment on it. Because there are people out that read this stuff and don't know any better and I do want them to know there are different conclusions out there. So if you have a problem with me saying you are not correct. I'm sorry. But I'm certainly not going to stop commenting, because you have issues with me saying I don't think your research is correct.

    And what your suggesting is dumb anyways. If you ask anyone who is the biggest expert of Marine Sniper rifles, everyone is going to say John Beard anyways. John has already weighed in on this topic. You just didn't agree with his conclussions either.

    Look, I could care less what anyone thinks of me. If they want to believe me, that is fine. If they don't, that is their decision.

    I know my research and I stand behind it. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else.
    Last edited by cplnorton; 11-24-2016 at 06:10.

  4. Default

    lol, are you really serious?
    Absolutely.

    No one is questioning your being an "expert", and I readily admit I am not an expert in anything. I simply want to settle the issue (amicably) of what bases were on the WRA rifles. No reason to be so sensitive about it. Heck, this is a forum, not a place to be tutored by anyone. But what the heck, it was worth a shot.

    As for me worrying about you saying I am wrong - forget it. It ain't so, Joe. What I am concerned about is the dissemination of incorrect information. People spend money on these rifles, and sometimes it is a lot of money. I don't want to see anyone buy something thinking it is what it is not. I see Winchester A5 Grasshopper scopes for sale on eBay as WWI Marine sniper scopes, and there is not one iota of proof such a scope was ever used by the Marines in France. Judging from the prices some people pay for those scopes, some must believe those silly ads.

    You just didn't agree with his {JB's} conclusions either.
    Really? Plural? Unless you see something I don't, the only thing we disagreed on was whether WRA or Philly Depot mounted the bases.
    I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else.
    I believe anyone who gives advice as to what is correct, and what is not correct, owes their readers something; which is why I wanted to settle this issue once and for all.

    jt

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marine A5 Sniper Rifle View Post
    I see Winchester A5 Grasshopper scopes for sale on eBay as WWI Marine sniper scopes, and there is not one iota of proof such a scope was ever used by the Marines in France. Judging from the prices some people pay for those scopes, some must believe those silly ads....jt
    Hey, would a dealer lie? They say it's a "sniper scope," what more do you need to hear? Hell, half the commercial Lyman Alaskans are described that way.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    Van Wert, OH
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marine A5 Sniper Rifle View Post
    I see Winchester A5 Grasshopper scopes for sale on eBay as WWI Marine sniper scopes, and there is not one iota of proof such a scope was ever used by the Marines in France.
    I think you need to go back and re-read what John Beard has said to you.

    On this statement above, I strongly disagree. I have official Marine and WRA pictures and documents that detail otherwise. But it's pointless to argue with you Jim. You have made your mind up on this.
    Last edited by cplnorton; 11-25-2016 at 05:31.

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cplnorton View Post
    I think you need to go back and re-read what John Beard has said to you.

    On this statement above, I strongly disagree. I have official Marine and WRA pictures and documents that detail otherwise. But it's pointless to argue with you Jim. You have made your mind up on this.
    At this point, it is a disagreement, not an argument. Has it occurred to you that there is a good reason I "have made my mind up on this"?

    You may not have what it takes to back up your claim, but I do. We will need a starting point. Would you agree the Niedner rifles went to France with the 4th Brigade and that the first delivery of WRA sniper rifles was 350 rifles delivered in the spring of 1918? The exact date is not really significant at this point.

    To be perfectly clear, our point of contention is that you claim these rifles had Winchester clamp on bases on 7.2" spacing and my claim is that they had Mann-Niedner bases on 7.2" spacing. Correct so far?

    jt

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    Van Wert, OH
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    I'm not getting into this with you Jim. I'm made my points very clear over the upteen millions times we have talked in private and in public. And any discussion with you is just one giant circle. It's redundant and pointless.

    You can make all the claims that you want, that you have all this research that proves me wrong. But I really honestly don't believe it.

    If anyone reading this has seen something I posted, and wants to talk to me about it, they are more than welcome to contact me, and I will discuss it with you.

    Good luck in your search Jim.
    Last edited by cplnorton; 11-25-2016 at 10:33.

  9. Default

    No balls, no glory. I will proceed without you, and I frankly don't care what you believe.

    I will need someone to examine my data and express an unbiased and respected opinion while maintaining confidentiality as to the data itself. Anyone willing to get involved in this morass, please contact me by email. jimtarleton@att.net

    jt

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Crawfordsville, Arkansas
    Posts
    470

    Default

    So does that make Marine A5 Sniper Rifle the winner by default?

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