"low numbered" M1903's and German 8mm ammo

[Art]

A thread in another forum had a copy of an Oct 1945 American Rifleman article "Why the Winchester Model 95 was Discontinued". The first and foremost reason was lack of sales. A number of M95's were blown up by WW1 veterans chambering 8mm rounds in their 30-06 rifles. Another article said tested pressures of 8mm's in 30-06 M1895's were between 90,000 psia and 120,000 psia. Such pressures would burst the Win M95. Winchester claimed that the rifle got a reputation of being unsafe and that affected sales, and so it was discontinued. The article said chambering an 8mm round was difficult in a 30-06 M1895, but, obvious where there is a will, there is a way.

I am still skeptical of the claims that any American WW1 unit was using German 8mm in their M1903's.

I understand that cartridges hotter than 30-40 Krag or .303 British were tough on the Model 95, but did not hear that they were unsafe. I do know that the Russian Army bought a bunch of Model 95 military rifles complete with full length stocks, charger guides and bayonet lugs. They were used through both World Wars though in a rear echelon role and the .76x254r was every bit as hot as the early 20th century .30-06 loads. I actually saw one of these rifles once, it had been "rode hard and put up wet" but was still waaaaaay out of my price range. I suspect that the superiority of the bolt action repeater along with the wear the hotter cartridges would put on the '95 both were considerations in its demise.

[PhillipM]

..

In fact, the tin coating on the bullets of the called 1921 NM ammunition created a dangerous condition by cold welding to the case neck. The intermetallic bond was such that the case neck did not expand to release the bullet. Months before the 1921 National Matches, Townsend Whelen wrote in the Arms and the Man descriptions of tearing cases apart in an attempt to pull bullets from the tin can ammunition. Recently a NRA technical expert said the NRA has a collection of fired bullets from the 1921 NM and these bullets all have case necks attached! Of course rifles blew up at the 1921 National Matches with the tin can ammunition, the Army did not acknowledge the problem was of their making, in fact claimed that the ammunition was perfectly safe....

Actual firing of the ammunition however, showed normal chamber pressures. It was finally decided that the bullets were "cold soldering" themselves into the neck of the cartridge cases. This unexpected phenomena was causing the extreme effort necessary to extract them using a bullet pulling machine. When fired however, the neck of the case would apparently expand against the neck of the chamber thus breaking the seal of the inadvertent solder job. Once broken free by case neck expansion the projectile was free to be launched without raising the chamber pressure...

...under NO circumstances should they attempt to lubricate the tin-plated bullets! Frankford and Springfield found that the incompressible grease would not allow the neck of the case to expand and release the bullet from the "cold solder job" in the neck of the case. Greasing the bullets had the potential of creating an explosive situation. Needless to say, this advice was handily ignored by many of the old time shooters...

...many continued to lubricate the new ammunition causing several wrecked rifles. In every instance, the cause was traced to the prohibited use of grease on the ammunition. At least one projectile was found downrange with the neck of the cartridge case still firmly attached to the bullet and exhibiting rifling marks on the brass...

http://www.odcmp.org/1101/can.pdf

[5MadFarmers]

I own three M1903s. I have tried several flavors of 7.92x57mm ball in them to see if I could get the bolt to close on them, well no joy on that; it wasn't even close. I suppose there is someone out there with the arms of a gorilla who crammed the Mauser round into an '03 chamber because I understand it has been done but you would have to work real, real hard at it.

Just an observation and a question: "throat erosion." One would suspect that the German 7.92mm may in fact chamber if the throat erosion of the .30-06 rifle was severe much easier than if it was pristine.

For the 1921 matches brand new rifles were provided. Army Ordnance magazine claims that the tin bullets fouled the bore worse than the previous bullets. It's in "small arms development" in 1922.

[PhillipM]

8mm surplus in my very worn 03A3 barrel I sectioned. It will not chamber in my 03's.

20160831_113611.jpg

[oldtirediron]

I remember reading somewhere that "some" German ammunition would fit. I know that one fellow that I met long ago said that they used the smaller German ammunition in their rifles during the battle of the Bulge--Now the question, was it 7mm Mauser Ammunition or 8mm kurtz ??This was only done when they ran out of ammunition for their rifles--

[clintonhater]

Remington, and the other commercial U.S. companies loaded bullets for the old Winchester .32 Special in their 8mm Mauser ammunition. These bullets are slightly smaller .321" than the 7.92mm Mauser which is .323" to .324."...

And vice versa works too. Have a c. 1900 Winchester SS in .32 Spl. with very pitted bore; about 3.5 MOA was the best I could get out of it. Loaded 8mm and groups tightened to under 2 MOA, which is about as good as can be reasonably expected from any Win. SS.

[clintonhater]

Memory is quite inexact and it is very possible the author you quote, remembered something that did not actually happen...

This is certainly the most likely explanation. Being a vet does not exempt one from the frailties of memory. Maybe there's some germ of truth to the tale, such as a particular rifle so badly worn that it would chamber 8mm, but the proposition that it was common practice in his unit can't be right.

Having been fascinated by "old stuff" since Jr. High, I began at that age putting questions about everything from old guns to old cars to any "oldster" who'd tolerate my interrogations. As I simultaneously began to read about the subjects of my interest, I soon discovered that many things I was being told just didn't jibe with the books. "Oral history," unsupported by documentation or other means of verification, just can't be trusted.

[fguffey]

For the 1921 matches brand new rifles were provided. Army Ordnance magazine claims that the tin bullets fouled the bore worse than the previous bullets. It's in "small arms development" in 1922.

No ideal where most of this stuff comes from. The one think I know for sure is life was not fair to Farr. He arrived without a rifle; he selected one from a rack, he then was taken to an armoire where he selected another rifle, in all appearance there was nothing outstanding about the appearance of the rifle like being new. No consideration was given to Farr because of the late start.

8mm57: I have fired 8mm57 ammo in an 8mm06 rifle. There is .127" difference in length between the 8mm06 and 8mm57 from the shoulder to the case head. That means when the 8mm57 is fired in the 8mm/06 there is .127" clearance between the shoulder of the chamber and shoulder of the case. When the cases were ejected after firing the case took on the appearance of a 30/06 case with a short neck. The case head did not separate and the case did not stretch between the case body and case head.

8mm57: I have fired 8mm57 ammo in a 30/06 chamber. When the case was ejected it had the appearance of a case that was fired in a rifle with pistol power. The primer pocket was opened up, the case head was crushed between the cup above the web and case head, the case head expanded and the flash hole opened up. When 8mm57 is fired on a 30/06 chamber there is no way for the neck of the case to open up when releasing the bullet. And then there is that problem with the bore; in the perfect world the perfect 30/06 barrel has two diameters; one is .300" the other is .308". The perfect Mauser 8mm barrel has two diameters, one is .311 " and the other is .323". When it comes to destroying a case the difference in diameter between the 8mm bullet and 30/06 is enough to destroy the case and rifle.

A gunsmith in North Texas removed a 308 W case from a 25/06 rifle, it took him 4 hours, most thought the bullet had to be 4 inches when it left the barrel; I said had he not purchased cheap ammo he would have destroyed the rifle. And as expected everyone was soooo confused.

To chamber an 8mm57 round in a 30/06 chamber the case neck must be crushed at least .009". Because the of the shorter length of the 8mm57 all of the neck is ns not crushed.

And then there are other factors, some increase the danger and some forgive the reloader.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...mp-perry-1921/

F. Guffey

[5MadFarmers]

No ideal where most of this stuff comes from. The one think I know for sure is life was not fair to Farr. He arrived without a rifle; he selected one from a rack, he then was taken to an armoire where he selected another rifle, in all appearance there was nothing outstanding about the appearance of the rifle like being new. No consideration was given to Farr because of the late start.

No idea why people make stuff up when they post. One would think it'd be easier to just check.

Perhaps Farr, like most, arrived without a rifle as brand new service rifles were being provided? Rifles which were intentionally made for the matches and received considerable attention to accuracy?





New rifles. Made from the $100,000 appropriated for the matches that year.