Winchester m12 trench on gun broker

[scosgt]

WOW, I wouldn't touch this gun for anything more than parts. The "US" is badly off center and is obviously hand applied, and the "S" is upside down. The periods after each letter were applied with different pressures. The ordnance bomb is a cheap fake. Can't tell for certain because of the picture size, but I also think the "G" in the GHD is also wrong. This is a M12 riot gun that has been humped and someone is going to get $crewd hard. Caveat emptor. My 2cents.

Unless they somehow changed the serial number AND faked the machine marks that is simply impossible. There are NO riot guns in that serial range. No gun ever left the Winchester factory unpolished except the last 3500 M12 trench guns with the Parked finish. And to those of us who have seen a few of these guns (even new in the box!) and are familiar with them, the main identifier is the finish. If you were to measure all the dimensions of the gun, you would find that it is actually oversized, since it was never final polished an finished. There is just no way I can imagine to fake that. It is what it is, more likely that somehow the gun turned up unmarked (contract extra?) and someone decided it needed to be marked. I would buy that gun in a heartbeat with no US markings, because I know exactly what it is.
So yes, someone may have ruined what might be a one of a kind unique gun.

[scosgt]

Just to continue the point, I had an Ithaca 37 skeet grade that was marked FJA and the bomb. The gun was absolutely correct in every way, and brand new, but we all know that the inspector for the Ithaca guns was RLB. I have the factory records, the serial before and after that gun do appear in the shipping invoices. That gun does not. I bought it from a dealer located in the Ithaca NY area, and his story, believe it or not, was he got the gun from the estate of a former President of Ithaca.
I paid less for the gun than it would have been worth as an unmarked Skeet Grade at the time, if someone had tried to fake it, they would have actually reduced the value.

That being said, it was quite real. It was marked later than the rest of the shotguns, for unknown reasons.The WWII Ithaca .45 autos are in fact marked FJA.

So just another mystery gun, sure would like to have known the back story. Or maybe indeed it was a contract overrun and El Presidente simply kept it, as stated.

[ww2imposter]

The matching ser#'s do throw me a tad. I guess it is just as likely a riot gun in that ser# range as it is likely that somehow the gun turned up un marked. It seems that the more I learn about things the more I realize how little I know. I do not know what the answer is.
Either way it's humped and has been reduced to parts statis. IMO....... Caveat Emptor

[scosgt]

Again not a riot gun. They stopped making them long before this gun was made. The adapter would not fit a riot barrel. Look at the barrel, you can clearly see the lathe marks, it was never polished for bluing.

The stock markings are right, and so is the stock finish. The late guns were not varnished in keeping with the military finish.

The markings are a mystery. The only thing I can think of is that it somehow got out without the receiver being marked and someone decided to "enhance" it. It is NOT a parts gun. Not at all. It is totally correct in every other way. It really would be interesting to know the history, every gun in that continuous serial range is in fact an original factory parked trench gun. Of that there is no doubt. And look at the pic of the serial numbers, see the area under the receiver serials? Now look at ANY other M12. You can see the area is not finished, and no one ground down a blued gun, there is more metal there. That is what the contract allowed for the parked guns, a very rough unpolished finish. There is absolutely no doubt the gun is an original parked trench gun. The only question is the unusual markings, which I agree 99% did not come out of the factory that way.

[Keydet92]

The serial number was applied to this frame in December of 1943 according to the WACA Historian. Just extra information that doesn't effect the current condition but is nice to know.

[scosgt]

The serial number was applied to this frame in December of 1943 according to the WACA Historian. Just extra information that doesn't effect the current condition but is nice to know.

That is irrelevant. We already knew it was a mid WWII serial number.

[SPEEDGUNNER]

The shotgun in question is right as rain, but there is something that puzzles me. Just below the ejection port, in the area of the U.S. and the "thumbprint" there is a aberration in the finish...not sure if it is the lighting, the focus, or if the area is messed with in someway. Did someone try to sanitize the gun at one point, then as values rose the U.S. was reapplied? I like the rest of the gun, but that area has me wondering...

Excuse my photo-editing skills. Note how the area outside the red circle exhibits the rough soft green finish most often seen on these late 12's. The rest of the gun is consistent with this finish. The area inside the red circle is more gray, and appears to be much smoother. Factor in the upside down "S" and it is odd, very odd indeed.

pix558093564.jpg

[colt thompson]

I figured someone tried to high light the US markings in white and then wiped it off
leaving a film of white

[mg42]

By no means am I an expert but I do have 5 parked m12's and have been a machinist for 30 years. These markings are extremely odd. Personally I think they have been added to an original gun for whatever reason. It almost looks like that area was heated possibly. After looking at my guns the US markings are in a completely different area. They are closer to the stock were original markings are closer to the barrel on all my guns. I would think if an arsenal did it they would at least have the S rightside up.
Just my 2 cents. I would love to have the gun but.

[mg42]

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