No such thing as a P17
Very Senior Member - OFC
No such thing as a P17
Phillip McGregor (OFC)
"I am neither a fire arms nor a ballistics expert, but I was a combat infantry officer in the Great War, and I absolutely know that the bullet from an infantry rifle has to be able to shoot through things." General Douglas MacArthur
Senior Member
Speaking of slowing down and reading a post, go back and read mine. It was quite short:Originally Posted by Johnny P
Are you claiming it's incorrect?Over 3/4 million M-1917s went to England.
Then we can get into whether they painted some, but not other, rifles of the "foreign caliber" with bands to identify them no?
In addition to the lend-lease rifles they were sent 250,000 M-1917s. Not purchased by their Purchasing Commission. Simply sent. Did they get painted? We have the answer.
The 250,000 rifles sent, not lend-lease and not purchased, were issued to the Home Guard.London [via U.S. Embassy]
Sept. 22, 1940, 12 A.M.
Personal and Secret for the President from Former Naval Person.
I asked Lord Lothian to speak to you about our remaining desiderata. The two hundred and fifty thousand rifles are most urgently needed as I have two hundred and fifty thousand trained and uniformed men into whose hands they can be put. I should be most grateful if you could arrange the necessary release. Every arrangement will be made to transport them with utmost speed. They will enable us to take two hundred and fifty thousand .303 rifles from the home guard and transfer them to the regular army leaving the home guard armed with about eight hundred thousand American rifles.
From "In Search of the Real Dad's Army: The Home Guard and the Defence of the United Kingdom, 1940-1944 by Stephen M. Cullen.The fact that the P17, although based on a .303 British weapon, fired a .300 round meant that all these rifles had to be clearly marked with a red band around the "furniture" of the weapon, to prevent accidental use of .303 ammunition.
Pattern 14 rifles were issued to the Home Guard. When the M-1917s arrived they were as well. The cause for confusion is evident.
The red band doesn't mean "lend-lease." It's a caliber warning. Over 3/4 million M-1917s were shipped. 119,000 were lend-lease. 250,000 were sent before the lend-lease act and were not purchased or loaned - simply sent.
Last edited by 5MadFarmers; 09-08-2016 at 06:36.
Senior Member
Read it again and maybe you can understand it. I said that approximately 120,000 M1917 rifles were Lend-Leased to England. You quoted my post and said that over 3/4 million went to England. My statement was factual, so what made you think my post needed to be quoted?
I know you feel that you are the only one that can read the instructions on the heel of the boot and be witty and entertaining while doing so, but your urge to prove someone wrong sometimes exceeds your ability to understand what has been posted.
Senior Member
Due to context. The thread is about M-1917s with red bands. So pointing out that 119,000 rifles were sent as lend-lease is either a non-sequitor or information, that while correct, isn't relevant. It implies that rifles with red bands are lend-lease. Which isn't true for M-1917s in the majority of cases.
You have no idea how I feel and I clearly understood the topic of the thread. Which makes one of us. Read the posts again and maybe this time you'll grasp it.I know you feel that you are the only one that can read the instructions on the heel of the boot and be witty and entertaining while doing so, but your urge to prove someone wrong sometimes exceeds your ability to understand what has been posted.
Last edited by 5MadFarmers; 09-09-2016 at 04:18.
Senior Member
A field gauge means it is out of spec but serviceable till it can be fixed, not yet dangerous in other words.
You can never go home again.
Senior Member
The point of having gauges with you when looking for an antique military rifle is to find one that's not worn beyond being fired accurately and safely. It's much better to know in advance that the rifle you're considering won't require the additional expense of repairs in order to be a shooter. It's been my experience that gun show vendors generally won't tell you the condition of the rifles they're selling and leave it up to the buyer to determine that. I personally wouldn't buy a rifle if I knew in advance that it has a headspace, or any other issue, but that's JMHO.
Senior Member
I just sold an M1917 lend lease with remaining red paint for $750.00. Bore was good. Stock was not beat up but dark. No sling went with it, it was a Remington, hope this helps. Five years ago I bought a Eddystone lend lease with red paint. Dam fine shooter. I paid $500.00 for it,wife can sell it when I'm dead cuz I'm keeping that one.
Very Senior Member - OFC
I'm finicky. I don't own a field gauge, if it closes on my no go, I don't want it.
Phillip McGregor (OFC)
"I am neither a fire arms nor a ballistics expert, but I was a combat infantry officer in the Great War, and I absolutely know that the bullet from an infantry rifle has to be able to shoot through things." General Douglas MacArthur
Senior Member
I give it a bit more space and use the field gauge. The Eddystone bolt on my early M1917 Winchester closed easily on a no-go gauge but only about 80% on a field gauge. I bought a Winchester bolt on eBay and it closed completely on the field gauge so I returned it to the vendor. I'd like to find a NOS Winchester bolt but even the worn ones are really scarce. The Eddystone bolt that's on the rifle seems OK and hasn't caused any problems so far. I admire how well the M1917 is built. It's probably my best shooter with open sights.
Very Senior Member - OFC
I don't know if they exist for a 1917, but I have a 1903 aromer's test bolt.
Phillip McGregor (OFC)
"I am neither a fire arms nor a ballistics expert, but I was a combat infantry officer in the Great War, and I absolutely know that the bullet from an infantry rifle has to be able to shoot through things." General Douglas MacArthur
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