1909 Match 1903 with Winchester A5 Scope

[John Beard]

Steve and I corresponded quite a bit on the rifle. We concluded that the rifle was a star-gauged and targeted rifle issued to the USMC shooting team in 1909 (but too late for the 1909 National Matches), who fitted it with a Winchester A5 telescope for match competition in that classification. Prior to 1910, National Match rifles were nothing more than selected, star-gauged, and targeted service rifles.

J.B.

Correction. Steve's rifle was manufactured and potentially issued in time for the 1909 National Matches held at Camp Perry, Ohio, beginning in late August.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I have tried to isolate the date the Mann-Niedner base was first used with no success. It could have been as early as 1906, and most certainly before 1916. Niedner mounted many of these mounts on the rifles of Marine target shooters before WWI. The fact that #2 mounts were modified for use with the bases is certainly interesting. The serial number and time frame separate this rifle from the later designated sniper rifles assembled by Niedner and Winchester by years. Since as late as 1917, the Marine target shooters were still having their scopes with Mann-Niedner mounts mounted by Niedner, it is not only possible, but most likely, that Niedner mounted that scope. The Marines had the capability to make any part of the assembly, but I doubt the Corps would have ripped off Niedner in such a way unless some agreement existed between the two. In mid 1917, the Corps contracted with Niedner to mount 150 scopes on 1903's using the Mann-Niedner bases rather than do it themselves. Oddly enough, the bases on this rifle are missing all the typical Niedner "signatures". A mystery inside a mystery.

I suspect a very early Niedner mounted scope for a Marine Rifle Team member, probably ordered by the team member for his own rifle.

Nice find.

jt

Correction on my post also: I must have been asleep when I made that post. Those bases are "Marine Bases", and those are typical, commercial #2 "Grass Hopper"mounts. If you were lucky enough to own a 1903 back in the day, and you ordered an A5 mounted on 7.2" spacing, that is what you would have received from WRA. Of course, only the military had 1903's in 1909, to my knowledge. But any US military entity who had been issued 1903's and ordered an A5 from WRA mounted on 7.2" centers would have received a rifle that looked just like this one. The "Marine Bases" were the WRA bases to mount an A5 on 7.2" centers, nothing more, nothing less. I personally see nothing on this rifle to connect it to the Marine Corps whatsoever. As for it being a Match Rifle, I don't know, as the A5's on 7.2" centers were typically used for matches less than 1000 yards (due to field of view issues), and I am unaware there were any 1909 matches where scopes were used at less than 1000 yards. I would expect 6" centered scoped match rifles to be used at 1000 yards, but anything is possible. Some of the rifles, such as this one, were later converted to Mann-Niedner bases to take advantage of superior zero holding capabilities of the Mann-Niedner bases over the WRA bases, which is typically evidenced by the front hole of the Mann-Niedner rear base being plugged, and a third hole drilled to match the 7.2" spacing WRA "Marine Base" hole spacing.

[cplnorton]

John and Jim, thank you for taking the time to comment on this thread. Also thank you so much for taking the time privately to look at the rifle and discuss it.

[Rick the Librarian]

Yes, excellent discussion!

[StockDoc]

Beautiful, love the look of the stock. One question though on the sling why so short, was that a shooter modification or a different variant of an issued sling?

[cplnorton]

I don't know honestly. But it didn't have a sling on it. That is just one from my stash I put on.

[StockDoc]

Interesting, looks like the same sling in the picture of the Sgt holding the rifle.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

....It also bears a strong resemblance to a A5 Marine rifle pictured from the WWI era. The date and location of the photo is unknown, but speaking with WWI uniform experts that study the pictures of that time, they believe it might be in France in 1917....

I believe that picture was taken at Camp Perry (or some other range). The Marines in France wore Army uniforms.

jt

[cplnorton]

I've been trying to put a exact location and date to the picture ever since I first picked up the rifle. Just because if I can, then I have a exact date and location to better understand the history of mine.

The picture is pretty popular in all the books, and online, but no date or location is ever detailed. They usually say WWI or "WWI Era" as the description. But, I might have found a clue that would detail more where the picture was taken though. I traced the photo to Europe and found it in an online museum collection over there. They have the description, On the Western Front 1917-18. Which is also a generic term and one could argue they just mislabeled the picture as well.

But they have a un-cropped version of this picture that I have never seen before. In this un-cropped photo, it has identifiers at the bottom of the photo that can provide more clues. It has 4337 in the lower left corner, and a US Official watermark in the lower right.

I've been working with some Marine WWI Photo collectors trying to date this picture for a while now. When I first showed them this, they said it had to be France in 1917, but they could not prove it. Well when I found the un-cropped version of the picture, I went back to ask them what that means. They said that is how the Army Signal Corps marked their official photos taken in France during WWI.

Here is the un-cropped version and you can see the number in the lower left, and the US Official in the lower right.




Just to make a comparison, this is another really famous photo that is shown in about all the books of a camo painted Warner Swasey. I also found a un-cropped version of this picture, with the same type of markings at the bottom that the collectors said was WWI Army Signal Corps. The only thing about this photo, a date and location is known. I've seen this one described as taken in France in May 1918. But notice the same style number in left corner and the same US Official watermark in the right.



Here are the two photos Side by side with the Markings visible.




Now I'm trying to locate the photo at NARA, and pull it. I'm hoping if I can find it at NARA, it will have on the back the location and date of when it was taken. But I'm really starting to think this photo was taken in France in 1917-18. Which that would be interesting. Just because the assumed serial ranges of the Marine A5 Rifles in WWI are later serials numbers, which would not have the early features of the rifle in that picture.

So yeah I don't know. I might find it at NARA and it says Camp Perry, 1919. I won't know till I find it. I just want to find exactly where that photo was taken and the date. Just for nothing else than to better understand my rifle better.

[Griff Murphey]

Beautiful rifle, what history to hold in your hands.