LN1903 Debate question (NOT for the reason you're thinking)

[Art]

For those of you who wonder why the Marines kept their low number '03s in service I suggest Maj. Culver's monograph on the subject which is s "sticky" on this forum.

[louis]

I 've read it (Maj. Culver) long ago, just that I also know about all the scandals political, industrial and the stock exchange that took place during and before this time period some where extreme (ie American aircraft, parts and delivery were almost none existent but they took in plenty of money), have you read Smedly Butlers "War is a Racket"? Or his talks about the use of the Marine Corps for big corporations in foreign lands, so all of what everyone is saying adds up to more scandals? But I'm also very cautious.

[Dan Shapiro]

Wasn't Smedly Butlers "War is a Racket" written after he was passed over for Commandant?

[Art]

Wasn't Smedly Butlers "War is a Racket" written after he was passed over for Commandant?

Yep, but that probably had little to do with him writing the book. The Marine Corps has produced more than its share of characters and none more eccentric than Butler. He came from a very politically connected family; his father had been a judge and congressman. He lied about his age to get into the Corps basically giving up a soft life. He was also hopelessly insubordinate and its amazing he was ever even a candidate for commandant. This is a man who won two MoH (three if you count the Marine Corps Brevet Medal he got during the period Officers weren't eligible for the MoH) and tried to give the first one back because he felt he didn't deserve it (he was ordered to accept and wear the medal.) By WW I he had ticked so many people off he was put in charge of docks in France and denied a combat assignment. In 1924 the Corps actually sort of loaned him to the City of Philadelphia to be their Police Commissioner and was forced out after two years for enforcing the law too equitably (rich people didn't like their parties raided for liquor violations and cracking down on cop corruption really didn't prove that popular either) which proves you can be too honest for your own good. In light of the history of the man I think he would have written "War is a Racket" even if he had been selected for Commandant.

Evans Carlson was another one, intellectually gifted and almost fanatically brave this son of a Congregationalist preacher rose from the rank of private to Brigadier General. he won three Navy Crosses founded the Marine Raiders and led the raid on Makin Atoll. He is sometimes considered the father of modern special forces. But..... his ChiCom sympathies ran so deep that the joke in the Corps was that Carlson may have been Red but he wasn't yellow. He actually organized his Raider unit using principles he learned while assigned as an observer of Mao's 8th Route Army, and no that didn't endear him to the Corps but he had become a personal friend of the Roosevelts. Speaking of the Roosevelts, he used his personal connections with them to change the TO&E and structure of his unit essentially on his own authority. It's probably a good thing for him that he died shortly after the war, the post war government wouldn't have appreciated him a bit.

[louis]

I totally agree with you Art, Smedly Butler also tried to have Mussolini arrested because his limo or entourage ran over and killed someone when he was acting police chief. And the expression "Gung Ho" Came from Carlson's experience with the reds. But I guess we are going in a totally different direction here from the original posting. You should read "Black Bagdad" by John Craige a former USMC officer stationed in Haiti during early 1900's and he returned as a political advisor after WW1 and then wrote "Cannibal Cousins". Both are very insightful of this time period both books are very difficult to find. But interesting reading.

[John Sukey]

Study the reason Crozier didn't allow our Army to be equipped with the Lewis gun and get back to me.

The reason; Crozier HATED Lewis because he had written an unflattering but true report about him.
Crozier came up with the CRAP that the Lewis gun had to be "tested" regardless of the fact that it had been use since 1914 and even by the U.S. army in the punitive expedition against Pancho Villa

[John Sukey]

By the way, if my reading on the subject is correct, there were only TWO failures of low number Springfields and we fought WW1 with low number rifles

[Fred]

Oh, there were a Lot more than just TWO low number receiver failures John. Just for starters, please read Hatchers Notebook.

[Col. Colt]

John, both major US Armories STOPPED ALL M1903 RIFLE PRODUCTION DURING A HOT, SHOOTING WORLD WAR over this defect, instituted an investigation and changed their manufacturing practices and measurement equipment over a period of several months. Read Hatcher and the details become a lot more clear.

And there were more than a couple of dozen failures - with even a fatality, lost eye, etc, or two, as I recall. I think they really, really believed they had a problem of unknown magnitude...... Luckily, it ended up being not a terribly high failure rate, but it WAS a definite failure to each of the men holding those few that did fail.

I would like to believe that most of the LN rifles that were going to fail have already done so, and thus the existing pool of rifles is fairly safe. That doesn't mean Murphy can't still nail one of us, all the way back from 1917! If I had a LN, I would be seeking out one of the .22 conversion units for it - or shoot it only with a similar vintage Hollofield Dotter! CC

[PhillipM]

Col Colt, they continue to fail. On a Facebook 1903 group a poster took pictures of a 500k rifle with a left side receiver ring CRACK at a Cabella's gun room. Management said it was okay. Rick the Librarian saw the post, I can't find the pic or I'd put it up.