Probable WWII 1903 Marine Sniper w/A5 scope

[cplnorton]

The other thing I noticed on this as well, and I initially wasn't going to post a pic of this because I wasn't sure if it was well known or not, but researching on google I found several mentions of it, including pics, so I guess it won't hurt anything to show it now. The top edges of the Magazine and front action screw box are filed down to allow the action to be more firmly pulled into stock. Even the spot of the bottom of the receiver is filed down as well.

Jack the Dog has a really good pic of his documented Marine sniper in this auction, and his trigger housing is filed down the exact same way. It also looks like it has the punch mark on the receiver rail that was polished over. But his is more towards the front of the receiver.

Here is a link to Jack the Dog's documented Sniper with pics to compare.

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12918480

[Jim in Salt Lake]

I have had people express concern over the shims on the front block. They say that wasn't done. I think I know why. And it was probably done by whoever put the scope on it. Whether it was a civilian or Marine.

The knob on the scope is very close to the handguard. So if the block wasn't shimmed up, there is no way that knob would have cleared the handguard. I also bet the screws in the front block are longer than normal ones, because of the shims.

I don't think the Winchester modified mounts have that same knob on the A5. And the Unertl one seems like it sticks out past the handguard and isn't so close, so shims were not needed either. But I'm going by pics online. I've seen neither in person, nor tried to put them on the rifle.

Here are some pics, that knob is very close to the wood. So whoever put the scope on there, I think shimmed that front block. What do you guys think?

I would think if they had a clearance problem with that knob, the person doing the job would just shave down the handguard as needed. I think they shimmed those blocks to change elevation but I have no idea if this was something commonly done. Does anyone know? This is one intriguing rilfle!

[cplnorton]

Very True and a good point Jim. I was thinking more along the lines that many of the Marine sniper rifles were sold without scopes to Marine officers, and it seems from researching it, this started in 1954. So I was thinking maybe someone bought this without a scope, then added the A5 and shimmed the front block up because they didn't want to cut up the handguard.

The only thing that makes me think that scope might possibly be original to the rifle is just the condition and overall look of the rifle. Most of the snipers I've seen that are considered real, look rebuilt multiple times. Finishes don't match, wear patterns are off. Most just look like parts and pieces assembled. But to me this one feels right. All the patinas match, wear patterns are consistent, it just looks like everything belongs.

[cplnorton]

And to add a little more intrigue, it looks like someone was keeping a count. I'm usually the first person to call BS on these. But looking at them with my loop, they are very old. They haven't been done anytime recent. Now whether Joe Bob was marking it for everytime he shot a deer in the 1950's, or some dealer did in the 50's to try to create a story, or Private Jones was helping win the war one at a time, I don't know.

But they look deliberately put on there and I'm counting either 5 or 6. I think it's six. It makes it sort of hard as there was a big dent put in the stock in this area and it crushed it a little bit and makes it hard to tell for sure.

So yeah no clue. Just interesting I guess. And maybe it's just all a coincidence and my eyes are playing tricks on me. My wife tells me I'm nuts all the time and I can't see crap.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Very True and a good point Jim. I was thinking more along the lines that many of the Marine sniper rifles were sold without scopes to Marine officers, and it seems from researching it, this started in 1954. So I was thinking maybe someone bought this without a scope, then added the A5 and shimmed the front block up because they didn't want to cut up the handguard.

The only thing that makes me think that scope might possibly be original to the rifle is just the condition and overall look of the rifle. Most of the snipers I've seen that are considered real, look rebuilt multiple times. Finishes don't match, wear patterns are off. Most just look like parts and pieces assembled. But to me this one feels right. All the patinas match, wear patterns are consistent, it just looks like everything belongs.

I will believe that scope is original to that rifle when you can show me any other authenticate USMC sniper rifle issued after WWI fitted with #2 mounts after WWI. When you have over 800 sets of the finest Win A5 mounts that exist, are you are going to go out and buy an inferior set to put on a sniper rifle you have worked on for hours to accurize? By the time this rifle was built as a sniper, Lyman had long bought the rights to the Winchester A5. The cozy relationship between the Corps and Winchester was no longer connected to the A5. If they bought a new scope, it would be a 5A, and if they had used one from storage, it would already have Winchester modified mounts.

jt

[cplnorton]

Yeah I can only find one picture from that whole early war timeframe. And that is the one from the Canal posted earlier. In fact I really can only find a handful of sniper rifles pics from the whole war. I think they started building the sniper rifles around 1939, and the Unertls didn't make it to the war till mid 43 timeframe. So you would think you would be able to find more pics of them, but you sure don't.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I thought the Unertl's were ordered in 1939.

Really nice find, CplNorton.

jt

[cplnorton]

I thought the Unertl's were ordered in 1939.

Really nice find, CplNorton.

jt

I have been trying to read as much info on these as I can and I just found this. It's from Grunt Gear by Alec Tulkoff. I'm not sure how accurate all this info is, but there is a lot of new info here I haven't found so far.

He states there were two orders for the Unertl scopes and blocks. The first being June 1942 for 1000. And the second order in Oct 1942 for 800 more. He states that by April 1945, 1750 scopes had been delivered and the contract had been cancelled on Feb 1944.

He says the total number of 1903's outfitted with the Unertl scopes would be approximately 775 as of April 20, 1945. He said he got that number from the total number of scopes delivered and the remaining number of scopes left in the depot.

He also states that on April 8th, 1941 they decided to make (40) 1903 rifles with the Winchester A5 scopes and they were to be distributed between the two Marine Divisions for training. Then in March 42, the 1st Marine Raider Battalion received an additional (40) 1903's with Winchester A5's. So it sounds like at least 80 were made with the A5 scope before the Unertl.

There is a picture of a Marine in Sniper School with an A5 on his rifle, in the South Pacific in the book training. Not that it helps my cause. lol The rifle has the modified mounts. I don't know with the copy right laws if I can copy that and put it up here as long as I give him credit? It's a really good pic of the rifle and one that I haven't been able to find yet. I think you would really be interested in it Jim.

[Roadkingtrax]

Another thing I had someone tell me, they say the Marine Match rifles had a punch mark on the area of the receiver that was polished. He said it was punched, then polished and sometimes they are hard to see.

If this is true, and it looks like it has a punch mark on the receiver in this area that I circled. Then that means this was one that was a USMC Match rifle at one time and then converted? I know the Marines used many of the shooting team rifles to build the snipers. But I also read they used other receivers as well as long as they could build them to match quality.

Mine had one...

[chuckindenver]

i believe that the scope, mounts and bases were added by someone other then the military, i believe the rifle is genuine..but not with an A5 scope, i believe the stock and buttplate have also been added..
id bet you would hit dirt 4 foot low at 100 yards with that scope mounted that way, and the screws would come loose of not break off..
adding the correct bases...and finding a correct scope would be ideal