Senior Member
Oh, so you would not say a modern repro 1873 Win. in 45 Colt uses a pistol cartridge?, or any of the original small lever action rifles? We are talking about power here, velocities, trajectories, etc., not design intent!Originally Posted by Col. Colt
Senior Member
Read Phillip Sharps book, I will take his word over yours, not to mention other authors. Pp.532, Rifle in America. "It is generally assumed a man can shoot better when a gun is held in both hands, and it was the 'original' intention of the General Staff to replace the 30 year old automatic pistol with a light weapon of increased fire power, accuracy and range". It goes on to explain the Peterson device of WW1 (which the official name was 'Caliber .30 model of 1918 pistol), and development of the carbine.
For all you who are unfamiliar with Phil Sharpe he was a US Army Ordinance expert in WW11 and before. Original specs for carbine ammo, 110 gr bullet @ appox. 1800 ft. sec. and was designed by Win., around the Win. 1905 32 Self Loading Cart. The Paterson cart. is identical to the French (1936) 7.65 m/m Long pistol and sub-machine gun cart. Hmmm!?
Last edited by dave; 03-06-2015 at 11:10.
Senior Member
Nothing above supports your misconception that "The M1 Carbine was developed for officers and rear personal...."
BTW it is not my word it is fact, straight from the Chief of Infantry in 1938.
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You don't have to read past the first sentence to see the intent was for combat personnel from the very beginning.
Last edited by BrianQ; 03-07-2015 at 05:51.
Senior Member
Well if the ORIGINAL concept was to replace the 1911, who else generally carried them? No not all rear people did but also they did not need full power heavy M1 rifles. And according to report you posted it also included "crew served weapons" personal who are armed with pistols or pistol is the only 'practical weapon' for them. But is was not designed for the average foot slogging infantry soldier (to replace the rifle)!! Basically what you posted was what Sharpe said---to replace the 1911, not a basic infantry weapon. A carbine is what I was issued in Korea. I was in the AF, not the infantry.
Jeeeze, read and understand what you post!
Senior Member
Wrongo! Can we send you a calendar?
You obviously overlooked the fact that the infantry battalion T/O of April 1, 1942, replaced 80% of the pistols with carbines. How exactly did the carbine become so wildly popular with the infantry when only a few pre-production models existed? (Answer: because infantry use was the justification for commitment of resources in the first place.)
Hows about we look at a period document prepared by an organization with policy making authority (instead of the recollections of a worker bee who had labored at a work bench)?
The FY42 annual report of the Services of Supply (forerunner of the Army Service Forces) contains the following nugget in its review of the year's activities:
"To increase the defensive and offensive power of those enlisted men heretofore armed with pistols or revolvers, and of combat officers below the grade of major, the Ordnance Department standardized, after exhaustive tests of various specimens, a new caliber .30 carbine."
What alternate definitions can you concoct for "offensive" and "combat" in the above quote?? Do you believe those terms apply better to rear area or front line units?
Senior Member
Sorry Dave, every time you post your argument gets weaker and weaker. Nothing in the initial requirement documents does it state what became the M1 Carbine was for "Officers and rear personnel".
From paragraph 2 of the original document. "The Chief of Infantry considers that the number of men in the Infantry regiment who must be armed with some other weapon other than the service rifle establishes a distinct military requirement for a special weapon and that such weapon should be developed. "
At the time the service rifle was the M1 Garand so we can deduce the M1 Carbine replaced the M1 Garand for certain infantry soldiers.
Perhaps you should actually research the subject before you enter into a discussion.
Senior Member
The title in the subject line is, Light weapons for Ammunition Carriers....As these guys were going to be humping ammo, no use for them to be carrying a pistol or a 03....With fewer than 5,000 M-1 garands produced, the word in the field on the Garand, in Sept 1938, that it was a dog...After all, there were 901,548 03's on hand, with 506,514 in the hands of the troops...So, is it not a stretch to deduce the carbine was intended for support personnel?.....regards....alex
Last edited by blackhawk2; 03-08-2015 at 12:36.
Senior Member
The TO&E during WW2 for infantry - the officers were to be issued M1 rifles and even when I was an armorer during the M1 rifle period, the officers had M1 rifles assigned to them.
Many times the officers only carried pistols
Senior Member
"...The M1 Carbine was developed for the infantry..." Nope. Despite what a book might claim. It was a replacement for the 1911A1. Easier to train troopies with zero shooting experience (Like nearly all W.W. II troopies, despite the "Nation of Riflemen" fairy tale.), than it is to teach 'em to use a pistol well enough to defend themselves.
Not about "officers, cooks, and clerks" either. Drivers, rad ops and arty types and anybody else, other than officers, who would have carried a pistol for "work". Officers carried pistols as a status symbol. Most PBI officers soon learned it got 'em shot. Of course, so did carrying anything out of the ordinary like a Carbine.
Spelling and grammar count!
Senior Member
Apparently reading isn't one of your strong points.
The document posted is a photo copy of the original document from the Chief of Infantry to the Chief of Ordnance requesting the development of a "special weapon". The M1 Carbine became that "special weapon".
Here is a follow up request from the Chief of Infantry to The Adjutant General.
scan0031.jpg
I especially like the part is the first paragraph that states ",this office recommended the development and adoption of a carbine for infantry."
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