Any Thoughts on Professionally "Restored" WWI Handguns?

[Vettepartz]

I have wondered about the fair market value of some of the very early M1911's that have been restored by folks such as Turnbull or Bill Adair or others. I understand that the costs are $2000 - $3000, and the finished product looks almost like a brand new original hand gun. I am wondering what they are selling for out there on the open market.

[ignats]

Anytime you make alterations to just about anything that's potentially collectible it loses value to a collector. One of the problems with those type of restorations is you really don't know what you have unless you were the one that sent it to the resto shop. Bill Adair's work was never as expensive as Turnbull's. I have seen any number of Turnbull resto jobs on various gun auction sites that went unsold due to the high price. In the end, what you have is a nice shooter grade pistol but that's about it and you have to gauge the price accordingly. This not an elitist attitude on my part, it's the general consensus among most collectors I know. The bottom line is, the gun is never going to be original. So, you have to decide, do you want a shooter grade gun or are you looking for a collectible gun? If you just want a representative piece of a particular era in history, I would rather have an original one with warts and all than something that was redone. However, if you want one that's nice and spiffy, then go for it. As far as these never ending "what's it worth question" my response is it's worth what the buyer is prepared to pay and the seller is willing to accept.

[dave]

The problem, as I see it is that down the road that gun will be sold as original, intentional or maybe not. Not being a 1911 collector I would not be able to tell if genuine or not. I have two but neither are original or worth much and a glance by a collector would know.

[dsk]

Some things out there, like vintage automobiles and Colonial-era homes are frequently restored because exposure to the elements alone degrades them over time. With small objects like guns, coins, furniture, etc. a collector wants the item to remain in its original "as manufactured" condition. A Turnbull-restored 1911 may look pretty, but by removing the old finish they have essentially removed its history as well. There's a guy on YouTube showing how he restores old 1911s, and sadly some of the guns he "restored" were worth more when he started than the final product he showed off in the end.

I've only had a vintage 1911 refinished once, a long time ago when I was new to the game and wanted a pistol that looked new again. The gunsmith did a very good job, but afterwards I was left with the feeling that I should have left well enough alone. When I first bought it (a 1918 Black Army with maybe 50% finish) it looked and felt like a piece of history. Afterwards it looked to me like a recently-made replica. I'm now of the opinion that old guns are supposed to look old, and if you want one that looks new just buy a modern replica that truly is.

[Johnny P]

The Turnbull restorations look over restored. More a caricature of an original pistol rather than a faithful restoration back to it's original appearance. Turnbull also does roll die markings now, so as ignats posted, your beautiful Navy restoration may now be sporting an Army slide with new Navy markings.

[Vettepartz]

Good point on the slide, Johnny P. I didn't think these notable restorers would go as far as altering parts to make them 'correct' for a particular handgun. I was thinking that they would only work with what they had in 'restoring' the parts.

I realize that something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. This has been discussed many, many times. That is why I was asking about the 'fair market value' here. I guess that is a semantics issue here. Thanks to all for the replies.

[ignats]

Not so much semantics as relative. To some people $1000 is a lot of money (me for instance) to others it's not. So, Daddy Warbucks lays down $5000 for a gun I wouldn't give $3000 for because he wants it and can easily afford it has just set a new value. Don't we see this with Singers and other guns on the various auctions fairly frequently? The prices continue to go up so trying to establish what the "market value" is doesn't make much sense. Pay what you feel like it's worth to you.

[Johnny P]

The next post down features a Model 1911 Remington-UMC "commemorative" with all the roll marks. You can bet those won't be destroyed when the run of 1000 pistols is finished.

[da gimp]

at least 1 auction of old Winchester lever rifles & other antiques, featured some near mint rifles......... the sellers adamantly denied that the rifles had been refinished.......... well before the auction....... several people who intended to bid on them. came up with the serial numbers & called D. Turnbull.....& Turnbull confirmed they were his work.......... & he notified the auctioneer of it too....... it is my understanding that the rifles were pulled from the auction.............

[Johnny P]

A few years back I stopped by the table of a collector I see at the Tulsa show, and he had an obviously Turnbull restoration of a Model 1886 Winchester. I ask if he had just bought the Turnbull restoration, and he immediately told me it was original. I just let it go at that. You just know that he paid more than what a Turnbull restoration would have cost.