Need Help with Type 38 Head Spacing

[fguffey]

Fguffey- Phil Sharp identified headspace as the distance between the cartridge head and the face of the bolt. He also said it could be called clearance meaning between the cartridge and bolt. He predated SSAMI I believe, and all the people I knew growing up, and still those I know now, understand for the reloader, headspace is the measurement of the distance between the bolt face and the cartridge head, most usually discussed for our reloaded rounds.

I can understand Phil Sharp writing a book about something he never saw before. Before SAMMI there were head space gages, they were the same as SAAMI gages with one exception. In the beginning they did not use 'the datum' they used the case body/shoulder juncture to the bolt face. It should not have been confusing because the old gages were stamped with the length of the chamber from the case body/shoulder juncture to the head of the gage. It should not have been confusing for a few because the shoulder, shoulder/neck juncture and mouth of the case were located in the correct place.

I understand reloader believe I am calling them stupid; you understand it is impossible to fix stupid. Phil Sharp would have been doing reloaders a favor if he had said "I do not know". Reloaders have been trying to reinvent reloading by throwing 'head space' into ever conversation. Not me, there is something else besides 'head space' for example by design the length of the chamber is go-gage length, the case is said to be minimum length. If you are a fan of Phil Sharp the length of the case from the datum to the case head is not .005" shorter than a go-gage. And then we advance to go-gage length, after go gage length there is no such thing as field reject length.

And then there is my M1917 with a chamber that is .002" longer than a field reject length chamber, I understand there is no interest but a minimum length case has when fired in my M1917 has .011" clearance. And then I have to start over because of fans of Phil Sharp because he has convinced you and all the rest of his fans the clearance is between the bolt face and case head. The clearance on all of my M1917s is between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber.

Head space and case head separation: When I fire 30/06 ammo in one of my M1917 there is no stretch between the case head and case body. I know, it should not be necessary to explain that but no one understands the shoulder does not move and if Phil Sharp understood that we would not have so many confused reloaders.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

By the way he doesn’t mention feeler gauges and all the extra comments you offer. Your comments are all bragging on how much you know and how stupid all other reloaders are and how superior your equipment is compared to other reloaders.

FRED ZEGLIN: If he did not mention the feeler gage he had limited shop skills. If the shell holder does not make it up to the bottom of the die the case did not get sized. If the reloader wants to know if the case had more resistance to sizing than the press/lube could overcome the reloader can measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die to determine the amount of the case that did not get sized.

And then if the shell holder does not make it to the bottom of the die an advanced reloader can remove the die with the protruding case to measure the case head protrusion. If the case is returned to minimum length the case had will be protruding .125" because the deck height of the shell holder is .125". I doubt Old Fred would have been one of my fans.

F. Guffey

[PWC]

Fguffey- Yes, the gauges did exist before SSAMI began to define terms. They are used to make the rifle chamber. To the average reloader, and that does not mean stupid, they can not do anything about that. They are interested in making safe ammo with brass that will last as long as possible. That means making cartridges that fit that chamber as closely as possible, and that means removing, as much as possible, any gap (their rifle's headspace; your clearance), between the bolt and cartridge base either by intentional or unintenional fire forming thru repeated reloading.

We all know your "expertise" in reloading, and how you reload for your vaunted1917 with no cartridge headspace/clearance. We, also know your "expertise" in not being able to shoulder bump, however thousands of reloaders do so for their rifles.

This will probably result on your restating your previously published compendium on why everyone but you are wrong about reloading. I think I'll go to the range and join a few strangers that couldn't possibly have reloaded the rounds they are shooting safely and accurately.

[fguffey]

We all know your "expertise" in reloading, and how you reload for your vaunted1917 with no cartridge headspace/clearance. We, also know your "expertise" in not being able to shoulder bump, however thousands of reloaders do so for their rifles.

I said it was impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full case body support, I did not say it sounded cool when a reloader claims he bumps the shoulder back. The same reloader claims his Rock Chucker cams over. I have three Rock Chuckers, not one of the three will cam over. Other reloaders, not one of them know/understands what it means for a press to cam over. Back to the part where it is cute to bump the shoulder. Bump is a function of a cam over press. If the press does not cam over it does not bump. BUT! if it did it would bump twice; once on the way up and again on the return trip.

The biggest bump press I have used was the A2 RCBS press. The cam over on that press was .037", I accused the owner of modifying the press. I had to show him how to adjust the cam over press when sizing cases. this was before the Internet.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

We all know your "expertise" in reloading, and how you reload for your vaunted1917 with no cartridge headspace/clearance. We, also know your "expertise" in not being able to shoulder bump, however thousands of reloaders do so for their rifles.

Phil Sharp is your hero, that is OK but a good case could be made to prove he did not know the difference between clearance and head space. Vaunted 1917? Not my 1917, back in the old days there were some very famous gunsmiths that got into a name calling hissy about my Vaunted 1917, I was 6 tears old. I got older and could not find out why they were so rude to each other. Anyhow I was able to put enough of the story to determine what happened. Nothing has changed, they could not figure out what and how he was doing 'what he was doing' and because they were so tacky he never did tell them what he was doing and how he was doing it.

F. Guffey

[PWC]

Fguffey- No, Sharpe is not my hero, my father has that distinction. Sharpe,s was the first reloading book I read, and while much of it has been overtaken by technology, the basic tennents temain the same. In fact, I've read either here or on another gun site, that Sharpe's character was much like what you demonstrate here.

Think I'll go do something more productive, like paint the patio.you can have the last word like you always try to do.

[fguffey]

Think I'll go do something more productive

If you want to be productive try to move the shoulder back on a case when using a full length support sizing die. Start by scribing the case body/shoulder juncture.

Clearance and head space: I believe it would help if you would start with SAAMI.

As you know we had a member claim the case had head space, not my fault but he had a lot of time and gigs of space invested in his belief; problem, he never read SAAMI and he did not understand mechanical drawings. SAAMI does not mention case head space on their case drawings and they have no foot note that identifies head space for the case.

But he still insisted to the point it was embarrassing, after that he claimed he called SAAMI seeking relief. I guess they were impressed when he gave them his pedigree.

Last word? I believe we 'all' would be better off without that kind of comment.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Mechanical drawings: Many years ago I upset the head space experts. They insisted head space was identified and located with a line, they even had an arrow pointing at the line identifying the line as head space.

I insisted the datum was a round hole and on a drawing it was a circle I even wasted my time telling them about the story of the Duke that gave away some of his Dukedom for anyone that could solve his riddle. I recreated the riddle and introduced it to one of the biggest high schools in Texas. They all failed.

F. Guffey