US&S EXP No 8

[gbethu]

The receipt you purport is from Clawson is a matter between you and Clawson. He denies giving you one. You asked for me to pay you $20,000 to "go away". Who does something like that ? Bribes are always wrong..
You cancelled a subscription that was paid for with a Navy 1911 I purchased from you for $20,000. It was what I bought with the pistol....certainly wasn't free.
Leave your frustrations about not winning Colt #39 and the Singer S800418 out of any opinion of me or any gun I may post here. I now see why so many collectors have so little respect for you. While you seem to have good technical knowledge about the 1911, your general lack of business ethics are widely known to be severely lacking. You will certainly loose more business with this public display. I have often been told by many to "be careful" when dealing with you. Good advice

You personally told me you bid on the auction Singer that I won because you didn't want me to get it "too cheap". My bet is you didn't win #10 or the Singer is, because like Clawson's guns, you couldn't afford them.

I apologized to milgunsguy for my tone in that post in a private message and we now correspond regularly via email. I always apologize when I'm wrong. You might learn to do the same one day.


gordon

[Scott Gahimer]

Gordon:

In my first post, I told you the same thing I'd tell anyone who purchased such a pistol. Anyone with basic knowledge of US&S M1911A1 pistols, a few good reference books and access to the Internet should be able to look at the photos you posted and see multiple issues with this pistol. Looking at multiple known original pistols is basic to learning. Anytime someone is going to purchase one of the most widely faked examples, he should also specifically study the known original examples of those pistols, too. Because the EXP has been documented with two different surface preparations (but still the exact same Du-Lite blue finish), and because fakes abound, one should also seek out an expert who is familiar with the US&S pistols, but also well-versed with other manufacturers so he can spot and identify all the incorrect parts. It's one thing to think something doesn't look right, and another to know it's not right because you can identify what the part is. Additionally, a real expert should also be able to spot inconsistencies that come with mismatched parts.

Additionally, I asked you if you had a return policy on the pistol...another appropriate question because, if you did, most sellers require buyers to promptly return items for refund. Because you purchased the pistol, it was obvious you and/or your "experts" did not see all the non-US&S parts and other inconsistencies. So there was very little point in trying to explain all the things wrong, nor what I considered the time to have a 5-page NAA #5 type thread to give you a warm, fuzzy feeling while we held your hand, posted numerous photos of original pistols for comparison, so we could finally get you and/or your "experts" to the point of seeing the difference in US&S manufacture parts and parts manufactured by other makers.

And to prove my point that it would not have done any good, you did not reply asking what things I saw with the pistol that caused me to ask if you had a return policy. No, instead, you accused me of being pissed at you and trying to get even. You made it a point to try to discredit what I was saying by attacking my character. I suppose if you don't know anything about the pistol, it's a lot easier to attack the messenger. I normally attempt to keep my posts about the pistols, rather than the people, but you made that pretty well impossible this time. You wanted to talk about everything except the pistol. So fine, we've done that and people can believe what they want. And you still have the same pistol issues with EXP 8.

Johnny Peppers has already started the ball rolling identifying a trigger that was never used in US&S production. What about all the other small parts that are discernible in your photos. All anyone has to do is save the images, brighten them up and enlarge them, and there are plenty of other things that are not US&S, not correct for this specific variation or not properly prepared for an original EXP pistol. I'd suggest just going part-by-part, comparing them to known examples. Anyone with basic knowledge and observation skills should be able to do it.

[ignats]

Am I looking at a Sistema trigger? They're close in appearance to Colt milled triggers but when placed side by side are slightly different. I know that Sistemas were/are a platform for fakes due their being machined closely to Colt specifications and relatively inexpensive to come by or at least used to be.

Let's talk more about the gun; that's the important thing. If we can educate ourselves and track down the fakers or at least expose their work then that's what needs to be done.

[gbethu]

Scott. I prefer to do business with dealers that don't have their own agenda. Your reputation precedes you in this regard. I'm sure the many readers on this page recognize your behavior. You can keep the "I just want to help" charade. Where this true, you would have approached the subject very differently.

I managed to acquire one of the finest wrist watch collections in the world over twenty years with the help of multiple experts. Many I purchased from or many just offered their opinion on other watches. A large portion was sold at Christies in December 2012. 3 world records were set.

http://www.christies.com/Important-Watches-23590.aspx

As the auction results show, I can't be all that uninformed in acquiring desirable items for my collection.

While I don't have very much money in this pistol, I did receive advice from experts other than you. It's almost like looking at your web site photo then meeting you in person. No correlation what so ever. If two people described you, which would be correct. Well, they both would, wouldn't they? You are kind of like a one eye Jack....I've seen the other side of your face.

To date, no one has shown up with another US&S No 8. Maybe you have one with that serial number ????
I'll get my advice else where. Thank you.

[Scott Gahimer]

Ignats, thanks. I was sure there were others interested in what this pistol is. Sistema? I'm not sure about that. Additional macro views of the trigger would probably be required to say. But, based on the brightened image Johnny posted in post #6, I think there is no doubt whatsoever the trigger is milled. Johnny also posted an excellent image of an original US&S stamped trigger in post #10. Here is the brightened image of the trigger in Gordo's pistol and a couple images of original US&S triggers I'll furnish. Does anyone see a difference?
Gordon's trigger (photo from post 6)


Triggers from 2 different original US&S pistols. Compare these two images to Johnny's trigger in post 10 and Gordon's trigger shown here and in post 6.

[Scott Gahimer]

Let's move on to the hammer. While Gordon's photos don't show checkering pattern, they do clearly show the side profile of the hammer well enough to determine what it is. Here are cropped images of Gordon's to show both sides, so there is no mistake about what we're seeing.



Here are left and right side views of an original US&S hammer from the same pistol. If you have images of what you believe are original US&S hammers, please post them. I checked all 20+ US&S pistols I show in my Gallery. They all had identical hammers to these I show below.



See any similarities? I don't. However, I am relatively sure I know what original pistols have hammers like the one shown in Gordon's pistol. But I won't post images of those pistols until others have had a chance to examine the hammers, comment or post their own images for comparison.

[Promo]

Gordon, I have always appreciated the pictures of guns I will never be able to pay for, therefore I always enjoy looking at your threads. Reading this, I understood that there is a personal problem between you and Scott Gahimer. We're all humans and have similar problems with other guys, probably some which are not on the board, but that is not something uncommon. However, I do not want to interfere in this topic.

What I wanted to say (while I of course need to mention that I'm definately not the guy who is able to tell you whether this pistol is legit or not, but others might be) was that there are plenty of persons here who would be willing to give you their opinion upon your pistol, and help you to confirm if it's original or not. All you need to do is upload a few more pictures of your pistol, showing a few details like the trigger, the markings, the hammer and other distinctive details of any M1911(A1) pistol. If you don't want to, that is fine aswell, however the opportunity is that you will also get other opinions from guys here who also have knowledge. And you're anyway free to believe whoever you want to believe.

So I'd really be looking forward to see more of this pistol! Please upload some pictures!

[Tommy2guns]

Gentleman pardon my intrusion in your conversation or boxing match. I am new to the forum but not to collecting pistols. I have always looked to this page and several others of the same type for knowledge I may be lacking about a particular genre of firearm.

I have never felt this type of sparring is good for anything when it is apparently coming from a place of anger or emotion. Whatever the root of this negativity is, it makes the original subject completely left in the dust.

I don't know either of you gentlemen and have never bought, sold or had trade with you either. The only reason I am making this post is the fact that I have had first hand knowledge of three known examples of the US&S EXP specimens out of the reported 100+/- pistols produced by US&S.

These are not pistols I hawked photos off of the internet to show off on my facebook page or personal website. I held these guns in my hands and had the opportunity to break them down for closer exam, study and photograph them.

One of these examples, SN99 was the gun that sold at Morphys Auction in January for an estimate $16k with auction fees. I was not at the auction on sale day but did preview the gun a week earlier. I did not bid on the gun as I was not looking to buy one but while I was killing time in the auction house I asked to examine it. In my novice collector opinion I felt that example was legit. Obviously someone else thought so as well to a nice sum over $15,000.

Another was SN36 which I had the option to examine prior to a public sale of it for the first time of two times it went up for auction in the past 10 years. It is the only example I have seen that had an embossed US&S factory tag with the serial number stamped on it.

The third was SN87 and at the time it was in a collection with two others in Jackson, Mississippi. Two of which were polished blue finish and the other was the duller, utilitarian finish of the production models. I did spend much time in the comparison between the other two at such a degree to make any strong declarations about it.

The reason I am adding to this post is that I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone of us has had the opportunity to examine all of the roughly 100 pistols assumed to exist or existed at one time. If we are lucky then maybe any of us could have possibly seen a third of them both in person as well as mixed in known photos. That leaves maybe 60-70 or better to not be able to study. You ever go to an English Lit exam on a novel that you only read the table of contents and expect to get an "A" on it?

With all of that said let's move on to the guy that wrote the book on it. None of which I see coming to anyone's aid here and I think for good reason. You ever consider that you both could be right or both be wrong?

Meadows writes at a greater length about these guns and clearly states that some, not all triggers, barrel bushing, lanyard loop, recoil spring guide, spring plug, slide stop were purchased from outside contractors. Take that short list along with the remainder of semi finished parts coming from other sources screams of variation between these guns.

Anyone here who takes issue with these comments should put earplugs in, shut out all the noise being made by big egos and opinions and read the full text of information from these two scholars of the 1911! Whenever something is put in a reference text that bolsters your claim you are more than happy to point it out. When it contradicts your claims then you ignore it! Can't always have it both ways guys.

I guess the last thing that seems to elude so many people on the subject of antique or collectible arms in general is the fact that people have owned these guns for years. Some people inherit guns or obtain them all on their own without knowing or understanding what changing out a worn out or inoperable part that may have been original to a better looking or operable part that is technically not correct for a particular gun.

Some people see what the majority of us call patina and honest wear and tear on an item and decide it's not "pretty" so they send it off to a Turnbull or the like and spend thousands of dollars, loosing thousands of dollars making their gun "pretty". Does that mean there is any trace of fraudulent intent? No, just means they wanted it their way, stupid as that may be it is not always done with malicious intent.

If the guy who owns this gun was trying to sell it to any of us and we think there is a problem with it then we can either point it out or walk away. If it is not for sale and they are happy with it then why trash talk it?

I use to collect civil war items of all make and manner. After getting out in the market and going to the shows and swap meets I became overwhelmed with all the unsolicited opinions about my collection and have never seen so many people set themselves up as the SELF APPOINTED MAN IN CHARGE of all things confederate, etc..

Let's call this jerk "John". I had been digging around thru all these collections and offerings and acquiring all manner of neat stuff I was completely content in owning. Had no intention of selling any of it. If I displayed an item online or at a show and low and behold along came John.

John would stand there and detract everything he could think of to kill the value of the item along with any respect I may have started off having for him. After his initial bashing of the item, he would turn right around and either make an offer to buy it, ask me how much I wanted for it or offer to write an opinion to go along with my item that would help increase the value for my not so good item or try and sell me his to go with mine!

Sure does seem that something like that goes on a lot in regards to these same circles.

I apologize for the long winded first post here and I hope to be more brief in the future.

[KeithNyst]

FYIW, EXP #1 is up in the May RIA Auction: http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/52/lid/3751

[Johnny P]

"Meadows writes at a greater length about these guns and clearly states that some, not all triggers, barrel bushing, lanyard loop, recoil spring guide, spring plug, slide stop were purchased from outside contractors. Take that short list along with the remainder of semi finished parts coming from other sources screams of variation between these guns".



That is somewhat taking Meadows out of context. The trigger has been mentioned as a part that is incorrect. If you read Meadows he explains:

"Yawman Metal Products of Rochester, New York, a subsidary of the Meyer Tool & Die Co. of New York, produced many of the small component parts, including the stamped trigger."

While Meadows indicates that US&S bought various parts from various suppliers, he did not say US&S bought various triggers from various suppliers. If you read far enough in Meadows he explains that Yawman produced all the stamped triggers for the four contractors.