a Sniper question, re: care and storage of weapon

[pelago]

being a former grunt, (longlong ago) I can remember one thing that usually held true
if you have to carry it it better be lite ! Now practical speaking wise, what did the WWII snipers carry their rifle in, did they have some kind of tactical storage system? all of these rifles have one thing in common, optics, and optics that probably do not take lightly to rough and tumble activities that associate with normal grunt life, I carried several types of weapons, M14, M16, Colt 1911, mossberg 12 guage and a hammerless 38 five shot revolver i kept in pocket(last ditch deal) and these were thru many years from Pfc to Gy from grunt to radioman to radioman/tech to NLFS on USS Saipan
I did see some snipers in action at AnHoi and at Khe sahn not close but did see the model 70's shoot from a distance
but what did these guys carry the things in, canvas bags? had to be something?

[rickgman]

Ira, I can not speak to the issue with regards to Marines but Army Airborne troops used the M1950 weapons case when jumping sniping rifles. I will send you a copy of an article I wrote concerning the M1950 case. Rick

[jgaynor]

The Army had several versions of the M65 belt pouch for carrying the dismounted scope. They were used on the M1903A4, M1C and M1D. Although the nomenclature was the same the size was different as the later assemblies were larger. Nothing mentioned in the WW2 TM's about a carrying case or drag bag. It would make sense that Airborne troops would have something since i believe they used them on standard rifles.

The USMC had both an aluminum and Micarta version of a tubular carrying case for the dismounted Unertl scope Interestingly there is a section in Senich's Marine Sniper book which amounts to an interview or dialogue with a WW2 USMC Sniper. At one point the author asks about the carrying case and the resopnse he got was - "carrying case? What carrying case?" Thsi individual stated he never removed the scope.

[pelago]

The Army had several versions of the M65 belt pouch for carrying the dismounted scope. They were used on the M1903A4, M1C and M1D. Although the nomenclature was the same the size was different as the later assemblies were larger. Nothing mentioned in the WW2 TM's about a carrying case or drag bag. It would make sense that Airborne troops would have something since i believe they used them on standard rifles.

The USMC had both an aluminum and Micarta version of a tubular carrying case for the dismounted Unertl scope Interestingly there is a section in Senich's Marine Sniper book which amounts to an interview or dialogue with a WW2 USMC Sniper. At one point the author asks about the carrying case and the resopnse he got was - "carrying case? What carrying case?" Thsi individual stated he never removed the scope.

I have shot many a long range match using unertl scopes, i never never removed scope between matches, there is no way first round down range would be on target after removing and re installing scope on rifle, and a sniper (i believe) wants first round to be only round to be needed. I shoot 1000 yards with a bull barreled 03 with 20 pwr unertl and i just can not imagine shooting first round at 1k after removing, doubt it it would even be on paper

[Col. Colt]

I think we, as civilian users on these "historical artifacts" in the year 2013 are missing something here. The reason (except for Airborne drops) that cases, drag bags, etc, were not in evidence was a very different world, and a mindset from "another country". The weapons were just that - weapons, to be used and, if necessary, used up in the performance of the mission. Very little concern for their long term survival - if the war lasted five years, that was forever - and when your primary concern is your own survival, you carry and do the minimum required (like cleaning due to corrosive ammo) and drive on to the next town or island. Hell, you could not bath, shave or wash your own clothes very often.

My M1903AForgery has a for real 03A4 issue stock - and it looked like forty miles of bad road when I got it. There was absolutely no babying of the rifle it came off of! And a comment I have heard regarding the Marine "M1941" (yes, that wasn't what the USMC called it but it's a lot shorter to type and serves the purpose) surviving Original rifles is that they all look beat to hell. They were WEAPONS - and they would be used (and used up if needed) and then the war would end and they would then be useless, anyway. If you find one, and it is pristine, chances are 100 to 1 it is a FORGERY! These were expendable tools to the men who carried them - ugly expendable tools, to some.

We regard them as irreplacable links to our history, our Fathers and Grandfathers, the "Greatest Generation". They did not look at them as anything but a tool - a necessary and important tool - but a tool to do a job to get home and away from the ugliness of war. If a GI heard a shell coming in, he did not worry a great deal about diving onto rocks with his M1! And he had absolute confidence his country could produce another one, if he needed it.

Today, in limited, small wars, driving around in Humvees and helicopters, we can screw around with nice cases, etc. When an Army WALKED everywhere it went, it did not carry superfulous equipment that did not improve combat efficency - you can carry five pounds more rations, water or ammo - or a nice rifle case. I once went hunting boot shopping with my WWII Paratrooper Sgt. Father, when I was about ten years old. He took a little fishing scale with him and WEIGHED each pair of boots! I asked him, "Why?" He replied, "If you've ever marched for three days with a full pack, you will throw the Joker out of your deck of cards". Different times, different mindset.

To quote the late Col. Jeff Cooper's book of the same title - "The past is Another Country - they do things differently there". My take, anyway. CC

[pelago]

You brought up some great points, it is hard to comprehend what it was like to be an infantryman in WWII either in Europe. Africa, or Pacific. They had what they had, they did not have what we had in RVN: Helo supply runs, What we had was ten times better logistically than what they had in WWII.
guess you have to create the mindset of the times. I just know from experience that it dont take much to lose zero on a scoped rifle at over 500 yards. I know that if one moves his or her foot just a few inches at 600 yards they have disturbed that natural point of aim that has to be maintained to hit X ring.

[Griff Murphey]

This may or may not help but I have seen a photo of a USMC unit returning from overseas in the 1930's and there are some men carrying cased guns at right shoulder arms. The other 95 percent have normal 03s at right shoulder.

My assumption is these were sniper rifles, cases looked to be canvas very similar to commercial gun cases.

[George in NH]

For Griff,
Sir,
I would be interested to compare the pic you mention to a cotton canvas "rifle case" dated either 1917 or 1918. Only one I have ever seen in hand and I was able buy it. The case fits either the 1903 or the 1917. Not sure if a scoped rifle would fit. George in NH