M1917 Headspace Question

[fguffey]

again...
on 1917 and P14s.
they have a heavy camming pressure.
with no cocking assembly, and no extractor...
it is felt restance on the tool. even if it closes on the tool.. forester Gauges seem to be undersized....and i stopped using them years ago,, G.I. guages are best...
it is common for some 1917s to have over sized chambers...more so on winchester then any others...so bad on some that case head failure is common.
short sweet...no fancy figures.... weve beat this horse with a big stick so many times...its a tender steak.

“forester Gauges seem to be undersized....” With minimum knowledge and skill a smith/reloader can measure a gage and verify the accuracy, if they had two they could compare the difference, ‘seem?'” is not a value, it is an opinion.

“ it is common for some 1917s to have over sized chambers...more so on Winchester then any others...so bad on some that case head failure is common” I have never found a Winchester with an excessive long chamber, the most common long chamber, in my opinion, is the Eddystone chamber. As reported before the Internet by smiths that built thousands of rifles from the M1917, they suggested the Remington first, then the Winchester, they they suggested to use caution when using the Eddystone, they claimed it was anyone's guess, at best it was hit and or miss.

Normally a very boring story for me stats when someone quotes Hatcher. “so bad on some that case head failure is common” On the first firing? Smiths and reloaders should stop and think before typing, The M1917 is a control feed Mauser like design, the extractor is in front of the the rim of the case, meaning to get case head separation when firing the rim would be forced to jump the extractor.

http://whisperingbooks.com/Show_Page...rse_With_Wings

or was it the Phoenix

Case head separation? No one measures before and again after, for the case to stretch when fired and separate between the case head and case body the body with the shoulder must move forward, problem, the case head head spaces on the extractor. Complicated for all and beyond the grasp of most, when a case is fired in the M1917 with additional chamber length the shoulder is erased and becomes part of the case body, the shoulder on the case when ejected is a new shoulder that was formed when fired.

No one scribes the case body/shoulder juncture before firing, I have fired 8mm57 ammo in a 8mm/06 chamber. that is .127” additional length added to the length of the chamber, if there was any truth to the claim “so bad on some that case head failure is common” I should have experienced case head seperation, instead I ejected cases that looked like 30/06 cases with very short necks.

Case head failure and case head separation are not the same. Case head failure can happen when the case experiences excessive pressure/failure.

No one scribes the case body/shoulder juncture, they assume the case stretches between the case body and case head, then there is the other factor, the design of the receiver and jumping the extractor.

F. Guffey

[Dollar Bill]

My goodness. Someone certainly is full of himself!

[fguffey]

[QUOTE=Dollar Bill;321595]1903/A3 and 1917 gages are interchangeable.

In the end, the fact that your rifle fails the field gage is OK as long as it's only by .001 or so. You can measure how much by using .001 shims cut to fit the boltface. The thing to remember is that upon firing, your cases will stretch a little more than normal. This is not really, in itself, cause for concern. I would check that headspace measurement periodically, say once a year or every 1K rounds to ensure it's not getting worse. If it does, a gunsmith can set the barrel back one thread and ream the chamber to minimums.

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Bill Dollar, I will assume you missed the part about “the forced conformity of ideals”. I believe there is something very sick about the forced conformity of ideals.

It is possible there is/are elements you do not understand, again, I will assume you missed the part about the smith at the Utah arsenal that used a field reject gage to determine the length of the chamber. His critics did not ask him how he did it, they assumed he was doing it wrong.

“In the end, the fact that your rifle fails the field gage is OK as long as it's only by .001 or so. You can measure how much by using .001 shims cut to fit the boltface. The thing to remember is that upon firing, your cases will stretch a little more than normal. This is not really, in itself, cause for concern. I would check that headspace measurement periodically, say once a year or every 1K rounds to ensure it's not getting worse. If it does, a gunsmith can set the barrel back one thread and ream the chamber to minimums”

The length of the chamber can be measured in thousandths from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face without shims. Any wildcatter can form cases to fit a chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face, I will assume there is only wildcatter on this forum, I form 30/06 cases that are .012” shorter than minimum length, minimum length is .005” shorter than go-gage length. Going the other way I form 30/06 cases that are .020” longer than a minimum length case, that is .006” longer than a field reject chamber.

“The thing to remember is that upon firing, your cases will stretch a little more than normal” I fire new cases in a M1917 Eddystone that has a chamber that is .016” longer than minimum length or .002” longer than a field reject gage without stretching the case, again reloaders assume the case stretches between the case head and case body/


“012” shorter than minimum length” is .017” shorter than a go-gage length chamber, 012” shorter than minimum length is a short chamber.

F. Guffey

[Dollar Bill]

You assume way too much, sir. You are not telling me anything I don't know but, at the same time, not assisting the OP.

My apologies, swede.

[chuckindenver]

standard factory 30-06 case head failure taken from a Winchester 1917. with an over sized chamber.
every 1917 that iv ran into with headspace issues..was do to an over sized chamber or bolt set back
i have yet to find an eddstone or Remington with an over sized chamber.
most of those were do to bolt set back with wear on the locking weighs..
well, i havnt wrote or even read any of the books on 1917s...helped out a good friend on his though,..
however.
in the last 10 years.. personally...i have rebarreled and rebuilt well over 350 1917 Enfields.. maybe more if i really sat down and thought about it.
my comments are based on my own personal observations while working on the 1917. not based on info posted on the net, or by a book..
heck in the last 6 mos, iv changed barrels on well over 30 1917s ...
i dont need to post measurements...or quotes from books.... i can however provide pictures of a pile of crusty barrels iv pulled and replaced,..
and provide a list of very happy shooters...if need be...
sometimes...a guys got to put down the book, and turn off the net,..put some gloves on....and wrench on a rifle...
im ok if you dont agree..or dont like what i post.... i try and keep my answeres short and sweet, and easy to follow..

[fguffey]

chuckindenver, If I was selling Eddystones that is the way I would present them, before the Internet, the Eddystone had a reputation of being anyone's guess when it came to quality.

Bolt set back: if the bolt sets back where does it go? An expert on the M1917 will suggest checking the bolt handle contact, as you should know the M1917 does not have a 'third lug', the bolt handle is the third lug. If the bolt sets back the bolt handle supports the bolt or it shares in the support, and as you should know there is not a lot of room in front of or behind the bolt handles when fitted to the receiver.

Then there is the 'bucket of bolts mentality' when purchasing bolts, it is suggested, when purchasing bolts, purchase two or three etc., seems one day a reloader/smith would discover the effect the bolt has on off setting the length of the chamber can be measured.

Again, an old member of this forum was having trouble determining the length of the chamber in thousandths. I went over to load a Mill I purchases and while there I checked his chamber length with a feeler gage and the ammo he was going to fire. I verified the length of the chamber with one of his head space gages and a feeler gage. He had no less than 80 bolts, I had no less than 30 bolts for the rifle he was working on, I offered to check all of his bolts for their ability to off set the length of his chamber with out installing the bolt.

I knew none of my bolts would help him, in time he got help from a resource/collector.

F. Guffey

[chuckindenver]

bolt set back..
if you remove the barrel,
and look into the face of the action, you will see the locking lug ways..were the back of the locking lugs ride against the receiver.
the 1917 is 3.5% nickel steel, as is the bolt, both are only surface hardened.
with amount of camming pressure the 17 has, after time, the bolt wears through the way or weigh...on the receiver, setting the bolt back..
you can buy time with a new bolt, or use a USMC or K marked bolt as they were made of 8620 steel and run smoother, and tend not to gual the steel.
however...this usually death for the receiver..

[fguffey]

"You assume way too much, sir"

I appreciate this approach more than I appreciated the"

"My goodness. Someone certainly is full of himself!"

In the beginning there was a drawing illustrating a case with a line through the shoulder area of a case, with an arrow pointing to the line and the caption, "Datum line", then the total amount of information in the description claimed "And that is how they do it".

The datum was not a line, it was a round hole/circle, with all the space used when posting the illustration there was never mention of the diameter of the datum or the distance from the datum to the head of the case, even today the case has a length measured from the datum to the head of the case but the case does not have head space, the case has a length that off sets the length of the chamber.

If I assume too much? I can not disagree, I assume collectors/reloaders/smiths are capable of understanding the concept.

Perception in my assuming, there are members that do not know and or understand and they do not want anyone else to understand.

F. Guffey

[chuckindenver]

you can see all the measuring and high tech work that went into making a 1917 barrel....this short film puts a nother spin on the over all.
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65...ough-periscope

[fguffey]

Chuckindenver, not easy to respond, you changed/edited your post, I ask about the set back bolt, "Where does it go? Back? When the bolt moves back what does it hit?, What stops the bolt from moving back?

F. Guffey