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  1. #11

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    I recently saw one of these at at LL Beans here in Maine. IMHO the quality of the original was vastly VASTLY superior although the color case on the repro at Bean's was very colorful.

    I highly doubt that the repro's are any safer than the originals, the limiting factor being the design. Please, if anyone is knowledgeable on this, has the facts, please enlighten us. My opinion on this is just that, my opinion. That being said I don't know why the repro's would be safer if they are the same design.

    The cost of the repro at Beans would get you a higher-end original rifle.

    All the best,

    Mark
    Last edited by Mark Daiute; 06-08-2013 at 11:33.
    "A man with a tractor and a chain saw has no excuses, nor does he need any"
    Me. "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" Emerson "Consistency is the darling of those that stack wood or cast bullets" Me.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Remote Utah desert west of Salt Lake City.
    Posts
    20

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    It is incorrect to assume that newly made Trapdoors are stronger than the originals (wear being equal, of course).
    The limitation isn't metallurgy, it's design.
    I have a Harrington & Richardson 1873 Little Bighorn commemorative. I've fired it perhaps 300 times. Until now, I never heard of an extra screw in the H&R that makes it unsafer. Had it since 1977 and this is the first I've heard of it being weaker than the originals.
    It's interesting to note that the late gun writer Elmer Keith (1899-1983) believed that the Trapdoor design was too weak for smokeless powder. He urged only the use of black powder. Keith used only original Trapdoors, and was noted for pushing well beyond the limit of other guns (he blew up a few revolvers in his lifetime), so perhaps his warning should be taken with a handful of salt.
    I've never hot-rodded my H&R Trapdoor. For that, I have a Marlin 1895, also purchased in 1977.
    "A vast desert. Galena in flight. Smoke. Brimstone. Holes in parchment. The ugly cat is much amused."
    -- The Quantrains of Gatodamus (1503-1566)

  3. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatofeo View Post
    It is incorrect to assume that newly made Trapdoors are stronger than the originals (wear being equal, of course).
    The limitation isn't metallurgy, it's design.
    I have a Harrington & Richardson 1873 Little Bighorn commemorative. I've fired it perhaps 300 times. Until now, I never heard of an extra screw in the H&R that makes it unsafer. Had it since 1977 and this is the first I've heard of it being weaker than the originals.
    It's interesting to note that the late gun writer Elmer Keith (1899-1983) believed that the Trapdoor design was too weak for smokeless powder. He urged only the use of black powder. Keith used only original Trapdoors, and was noted for pushing well beyond the limit of other guns (he blew up a few revolvers in his lifetime), so perhaps his warning should be taken with a handful of salt.
    I've never hot-rodded my H&R Trapdoor. For that, I have a Marlin 1895, also purchased in 1977.
    I have a Pedersoli TD & read that they used the basic H&R design. That would include the breech lock and locking lever, which is a 2 piece design. There is a tiny set screw in the latch that tightens against a flat on the lever shaft to prevent the 2 pieces from sliding apart. Even if the set screw were loose, the latch cannot rotate out of locked position since it is a square shaft into a square latch hole. The lever could slide out and leave the latch unsecured, but if you're aware of your firearm when you lock the action, you'd notice the lever no longer positioned in the notch in the wood under the hammer. Another clue is if you can hold a separate piece in your hand, best not pull the trigger.

    I read about the locking concern & took a look at my brand new Pedersoli - just brought it home this last weekend. It was proofed in 2001 and looks to be unfired - no wear on hammer-to-firing pin finish, no wear in the lock mechanism or between sear lever & trigger. Yep - that set screw was not only loose, allowing the lever/latch to wiggle a little, but looks like they never tightened that setscrew up against the lever shaft flat.

    And I installed an original ejector spring and plunger into the Pedersoli, it now ejects with force and authority - just like an original!

    Hodgdon and Lee Trapdoor loading data generally corroborate each other for safe pressures using smokeless, and shooter data from some of the Trapdoor sites indicate they load even lighter for accuracy loads. I've fired black powder loads in my Bannerman Conversion, but there are several I'd not hesitate to try; the rest I'll use in my replica.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZshooter View Post
    I have a Pedersoli TD & read that they used the basic H&R design. That would include the breech lock and locking lever, which is a 2 piece design. There is a tiny set screw in the latch that tightens against a flat on the lever shaft to prevent the 2 pieces from sliding apart. Even if the set screw were loose, the latch cannot rotate out of locked position since it is a square shaft into a square latch hole. The lever could slide out and leave the latch unsecured, but if you're aware of your firearm when you lock the action, you'd notice the lever no longer positioned in the notch in the wood under the hammer. Another clue is if you can hold a separate piece in your hand, best not pull the trigger.

    I read about the locking concern & took a look at my brand new Pedersoli - just brought it home this last weekend. It was proofed in 2001 and looks to be unfired - no wear on hammer-to-firing pin finish, no wear in the lock mechanism or between sear lever & trigger. Yep - that set screw was not only loose, allowing the lever/latch to wiggle a little, but looks like they never tightened that setscrew up against the lever shaft flat.

    And I installed an original ejector spring and plunger into the Pedersoli, it now ejects with force and authority - just like an original!

    Hodgdon and Lee Trapdoor loading data generally corroborate each other for safe pressures using smokeless, and shooter data from some of the Trapdoor sites indicate they load even lighter for accuracy loads. I've fired black powder loads in my Bannerman Conversion, but there are several I'd not hesitate to try; the rest I'll use in my replica.
    I had a H&R Officer's Model trapdoor. My concern was that the firing pin had no spring on it and it would not automatically retract when the hammer was cocked. I was worried that a piece of debris might cause the firing pin to stick in the forward position and fire a cartridge as the breech block was closed. I used the spring out of a ball point pen in the breech block that then caused the firing pin to retract when the hammer was lifted from the firing position. Don't really know if this was all necessary, but it made me feel less flinchy when firing the rifle.
    Read, think, UNDERSTAND, comment

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    Just for grins, I clicked on the Uberti company website, in search for a parts diagram - just to csee how different it was from the Pedersoli.

    I had to reload it a couple of times, since there was some kind of error - What I found was the Davide Pedersoli instruction manual within the Uberti website to click to download.

    My conclusion is that Uberti just markets "their" Trapadoor & that the actual manufacturer is Pedersoli.

    Tricky, those rascally Italians ...

    Bottom line, if my observation is correct, the Uberti trapdoor will have the same 2 piece firing pin and that controversial 2-piece cam latch (with retaining set screw) and thumb release lever.

  6. #16

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    Apparently, the square shaft was Pedersoli's fix for the the inherent problem found on their "early" guns, and all H&Rs. I know nothing of Ubertis.

    The source of the problem was H&R's belief that they could lower the cost of manufacture by eliminating the breechblock cap and the recess for it in the breechblock. This could be accomplished by separating the latch and shaft, which would have been all well and good if done so as to NOT permit relative rotation between the parts. That is where they slipped up, and Pedersoli's fix is effective.

    As an aside, H&R purchased original M1873 sights for their limited-production Infantry Rifle commemoratives. Sometimes I wonder if they might not have done well to do the same for the blocks. Ironically, their lawyers would probably have rejected such an idea on liability grounds, little realizing that their own bean-counters were perpetrating a worse sin in-house.

  7. #17

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    As the OP, I would like to say that I gave up on ANY reproduction and just bought a really nice 1884 model rifle from Al Frasca. The gun had some blems on the exterior but the bore was cherrry and the weapon may have never been fired. Heh-heh. Well it's been fired now. With nothing but BP and 20:1 lead bullets. I can't see how a modern manufacturer could duplicate the Trapdoor at a price competitive with the half-million of them that were made and most of which are still kicking around.

    Buy original!

    jn

  8. #18

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    Couldn't agree more - see no reason for the replicas at all, period.

  9. #19

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    When I decided to play with a Trapdoor, I too shied away from the repro's and bought an original 1884. I actually paid less for it than the repro's were selling for. I traded an M1917 and $100 for it.
    The repro I do have is the Pietta-Smith Carbine. Now there is a price difference worth taking note of. Barely used and new-looking it was only $550.
    2016 Chicago Cubs. MLB Champions!


    **Never quite as old as the other old farts**

  10. #20

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    I reckon I'll be the one to go against the grain here. I have a Pedersoli infantry trapdoor and love it. The prices you guys are referencing must be suggested retail because I got mine for less than half of that. I've had no problems whatsoever and it is quite accurate. I see nothing wrong with repros.

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