Vikings

[Guamsst]

Anyone else watch this show on the History Channel?

I find parts of it great, parts annoying and other parts laughable.

I noted some great things like their battle techniques but other things seemed totally off. Mostly the sexual side of it seems out of line with the direct accounts I've read. For some reason the show makes it seem like 3 ways of Male, Male, Female were the norm always done on the request of the Female with enthusiasm from her husband. At the same time though the leader offers his wife to another man "if she wants it" then murders the man when he tries to sleep with her for being untrustworthy.

Also, the raiders often show to much compassion for their enemies in my opinion. I know they are trying to show the vikings as "human" I just think they are trying too hard.

Viking society was odd at best by todays standards although I personally appreciate their simplistic views of many things. Like "why would anyone have sex with a child instead of grown women?" and "If your God is so great, why does he need so much gold, is he greedy?"

[Art]

The show isn't bad. It's based on the exploits of a famous Danish Viking chieftan named Ragnar "Lodbrok" Sigurdsson who spent a lot of time raiding the British Isles and France. All famous Vikings seem to have had nicknames and apparently "lodbrok" meant "shaggy pants" or "hairy breaches" . Ragnar was supposed to have been associated with a famous shield maiden named Lagertha who in this version is his wife. Because the sagas about Ragnar Sigurdsson are of much later origin than his actual exploits they aren't considered too reliable when it comes to the details, especially given the Northmen's penchant for exaggeration and embellishment. This of course allows the producers to use a lot of leeway in developing his character. As far as being too nice to the victims, I really didn't see that. The Vikings in the series do a lot of gratuitous killing of the English just for grins. In fact, all of the prisoners Ragnar brings back from his first raid of England are put to death in various unpleasant ways just for sport. I've really only seen two acts of generosity by the Vikings to their victims in this series, the sparing of one priest who Ragnar takes a liking to after he gets to know him, and who is quite useful because of being able to speak both English and the Scandinavian dialect that Ragnar uses (how he acquired this skill isn't adequately explained) and Lagertha's killing of the current Jarl's spy because she looks on his rape of a Saxon woman as bad form, she also really doesn't like the guy which I think would have been a bigger motivation. The religious conflict between Paganism and Christianity is pretty well explored (so far) and the slave priest provides the plot vehicle for that

The major historical errors, besides making Viking family life a bit too "randy," include showing the Vikings as less well equipped than the English (the reverse was true) and the idea that somehow the Danes didn't know that the British Isles existed. The Viking penchant for human sacrifice is explored in detail as is the chaotic state of political life, if it could even be called that, in "Nordicland" at the time. According to some versions when Aella the king of Northumberland is killed by Ragnar's sons they perform the "blood eagle" on him, a particularly gruesome and painful form of execution exclusively used by the Vikings, it'll be interesting to see if that happens.

The historical Ragnar seems to have had quite a few natural and adopted children. These included three of his sons who were also famous Viking raiders; Bjorn "Ironside" Ragnersson, Ivar (or Einar) "the boneless" Ragnarsson and Sven "Snake eye" Ragnarsson.

Ragnar's brother "Rollo" seems to be based on a somewhat later Viking named Rolf, also known as "Walking Rolf" because the story went he was so large that no horse could carry him. Rollo, as the French called him, became the first Duke of Normandy.

Ragnar has been portrayed in a movie at least once before. Ernest Borgnine played him in the late 1950's movie "The Vikings" in which Kirk Douglas combined all of the sons in one character. Interestingly that version also involved an English slave played by Tony Curtis.

[Guamsst]

No, there isn't an overwhelming since of the Vikings being "nice" it just seems some of it is tacked on. The rape was the biggest one for me. But there are several other smaller comments and acts.

I am not sure what you meant by a historical error of showing Viking family life as being a bit too"Randy". Considering the accounts claiming they liked to start the day with group sex, I felt like they toned it down. But, it was odd they keep showing the male male female 3way which I have never heard of as a common practice for Vikings. Couple that with the murder of the man invited to sleep with the leaders wife and it just leaves me confused as to what they think was normal. Ofcourse, the writings of Ibn Fadlan might have been played up to shock his Muslim audience as well. The Vikings had a very odd sense of morality by Christian standards and I kind of wish they would have left sexuality out of it since it isn't like this is HBO and they can really get into it like they do with the Romans on Spartacus. The most difficult thing in finding facts about viking life though is that I am unaware of a single factual account. Every account, even thoughs that are well documented like Ibn Fadlan's are still "stories" and interpretations of stories. One person noted they did not believe vikings were tattooed despite Fadlan's account. When I read Fadlan's account I do not take him to mean tattoos at all so atleast three viewpoints exist of a single line.

A friend asked if they wore horned helms on the show and I told him that surprisingly they wear no helms at all. It does start before the vikings really became the rampaging hordes we think of now, but it was well after they had taken to raiding as a lifestyle. I loved the battle scene on the beach though because it showed what I always loved about Vikings. They used simple and effective techniques to guarantee success. I expected a large chaotic battle of one on one swordsmanship hollywood style. Instead they formed a shield wall and slowly chewed up the opposing force until it was slaughtered. Ofcourse techniques are speculation as well but looking at their weapons, their defenses and their homes. I think there is a pretty accurate consensus on their basic techniques in battle with enough of them coming from outside sources to make a good guess.

The idea that England was a great mystery and they couldn't possibly navigate there really bugged me. The vikings had contact with plenty of other peoples and a good grasp of geography. What they didn't have was apparently any idea that there were churches full of gold for the taking. In the show they make England seem like North America, not a large island just off the coast of France.

[Barryeye]

I was under the impression that the Viking stereotypical horned helmet was a Victorian invention used to embellish plays and paintings. It would have not been at all practical as it would hinder an otherwise glancing sword strike.

[Art]

Guam,

What I meant about the family life was that it was more conventional than the series indicates. I am with you that the idea that the Vikings were into any sort of wife sharing has no basis that I know of. As in most cultures one of the major points of marriage is to produce legitimate offspring and the kind of fooling around shown in the series would raise all kinds of doubts about paternity which in turn would lead to far too many conflicts over estates. The men had concubines as well as wives but that was common in other cultures of the time. So the "swinger" aspect of the program is pure soap opera stuff.

I did like the faithfulness to history in the raiding part. The point was to get the loot and get out, Ragnar figures out the best time conduct "business" is on Sunday or religious holidays when he could get everybody in one place, and get out before the "cavalry arrived." The only reason the "beach fight" occurs at all is that the Saxons show up and cut him off from his ship. Like most thieves today one of the major objectives is to get home alive with the loot, and contrary to inferences in the series the people the Vikings raided could be formidable fighters (they seem to have had especially high regard for the Franks) and the Vikings were not always victorious. Of course when brought to battle the only option was to fight all out.

The Vikings were also more cultured than we sometimes realize. They used a functional but awkward system of writing. They were extremely good wood and metal workers, as would be expected from such fine shipwrights, and some of their jewelry was exceptionally beautiful.

The old Norse sagas can make for some very interesting reading indeed and its nice to see a series based on one of them that tries to be at least a little bit serious about the culture.

[Guamsst]

Art, I agree about the avoidance of bastard children. While there are accounts of group sex they have always revolved around the man with multiple women. Which is almost always the case in a warrior culture where men die at a higher rate than women. Add in the ability to steal concubines and this makes multiple female partners logical as well as the sparing of some men as slaves to help with the work.

I also agree that Viking raids were business as you stated. The entire purpose of raids revolved around two things. Stealing loot to supplement your food supply through trade, and getting bragging rights for killing other warriors. Best way to do that is to get in fast where there are few warriors to oppose you then get out. Hence the shallow draft long boats so they could row up small rivers and canals and get back out quickly by sailing away.

I did some reading last night and was reminded how varied the accounts are of viking life. One thing to remember though is there were different tribes from different countries that we consider to all be vikings. So, to generalise them is similar to generalising Native Americans as a singular culture.

Also, some people take the viking laws as writ in stone and unbreakable. While viking culture forbid even accidentally injuring a woman or making any unwanted advance, American society has very similar laws punishable by similar fines and even the barring of carrying arms. However, domestic violence and rape are common. I doubt viking society was spotless as some believe but I truly appreciate the laws and culture atleast in their intent.

Another aspect was cleanliness. While there was an expectation of being well kept and clean according to researchers, Ibn Fadlan states the vikings he encountered were filthy swine who did not wipe their butts. Ofcourse then he also relays the morning grooming ritual. So I guess it depends on what you find disgusting.

My personal fascination revolves around how practical the vikings were. The idea of the long house with the door that was only a couple of feet high is something I really like. The idea being that a woman or old man can defend the home by lopping the heads off invaders as they crawl in through the door......pure simplistic genius. Also, helps with heating.

[da gimp]

daam good show, like it.

[Guamsst]

daam good show, like it.

I got used to it and like it, just have some issues.

Also, Ragnars wife makes me awfully frisky....LOL

[Art]

On "hygene:" This was a culture where cleanliness was a relative thing and certainly not next to Godliness. Getting wet in the wintertime especially could be a really bad thing. While appearance does seem to have carried some weight with the Norse, I think the people in the movie do look sufficiently scruffy on their bad days and I'm sure that a bath, especially in the winter consisted of nothing more than wiping off with a damp cloth. In any accurate depiction of people of the time in question, even the most "tidy" which the norse probably weren't; a modern human would definitely would not want to meet up close and downwind.

As Guam said, there were variations in the general Viking culture, though there was a lot of overlap. Ragnar was reputed to for a brief time to have controlled not only most of Denmark but a good bit of Sweden as well so there was dynastic overlap as well. The last great Viking ruler, Harald "Hardrada" Sigurdsson (Hardrada is usually translated "Stern Counselor" or "Hard Ruler") ruled Norway, briefly claimed part of Denmark and died in 1066 trying to take over England. His defeat at Stamford Bridge by a Saxon army commanded By Harold, the last Saxon king in 1066 is considered the end of the Viking age. Harald Hardrada's life makes fascinating reading, I sometimes wonder if he was one of the models for the character of "Conan the Barbarian" who like Harald became king "by his own hand." Between his first battle when he was 15 to his death in his early 50s he fought all over Europe and as far as the middle east where he commanded, for a time, the bodyguard of the emperor of Constantinople.

Oh, Guam, Lagertha as portrayed in the movie is definitely what a Viking noblewoman should look like .

[Fred]

The first Viking ship that makes its appearance in the early part of the movie The Thirteenth Warrior as it comes up the river is an extremely accurate and dead on correct replica of what a Viking ship was. It's much larger and sea worthy than the smaller and less impressive versions that are passed off as Viking ships on the TV series Vikings. Take a good look at that ship in the movie. It was built specificly for that movie and was copied from a design of an original type that were being used over a thousand years ago. It is a 95 foot long sea going vessel. Its bow is much higher and less suseptible to high waves on the ocean that would swamp the smaller ships (boats actually) depicted on the TV series. Such small boats did of course exist as well, but they weren't used to cross oceans on long voyages as much as skirting coast lines and river travel. Even the larger ships such as the one I mentioned were capable of traveling up rivers because of their shallow draft. Too bad that the TV show producers couldn't borrow the big ship for their series. I wonder who owns it now? If I did, I'd be taking it out on a large lake with a crew of beer drinking buddies to man the oars. No doubt the lake police would be hauling us all in. LOL