ROTC Summer Camp, Fort Sill, 1970

[blackhawknj]

I went through ROTC Advanced Camp at Fort Bragg in the Summer of 1975.I was "Prior Service" in the parlance of the day, having first enlisted in 1967. At the rifle range we were told "position optional", I went to the sitting position, the 82nd Airborne soldier there said
"Where'd you learn to shoot like that, Marine?", I replied "Fort Dix, Summer of 1967."
There were quite a few veterans there, hence we did not get all the "Caydet!" stuff.
First coed ROTC camp IIRC, they were in a separate barracks, though we trained together. Only 1 or 2 lookers, the rest pretty much dogs.
Boiling hot summer, several 100 degree days. One time at the range a real downpour, we gathered in the commo tent-then lighting hit the tentpole and wire. One of the girls let out a scream that should have been recorded for Hollywood, I went out the side of the tent like a cartoon character.
I had signed up for ROTC but had never been properly discharged from the Reserves. I received my E-7 stripes while I was there, the Sergeant Major insisted on pinning them on me in a formal ceremony, wore them for about 5 minutes.

[Griff Murphey]

Making E-7 in 8 years is damn good.

[tayson123]

ROTC Academic Summer Camps has the ability to teach young people about responsibility, care and concern for others, teamwork, social skills and values. Every parent wants to teach such things to their children and a military summer camp is the perfect place for kids to have fun but come home a fitter and better individual. Visit our blog site to get more information.

Wow it sounds so tempting to join
Is this only a military camp or there is any other activities also like games, hiking etc and how much is the fees for this summer camp. Please let me know
Thanks in advance

[Griff Murphey]

Go to college, sign up for Army ROTC. At the end of your sophomore year, if you can pass the physical and have good grades, you will be offered to continue to the advanced course. Of course you sign a contract to serve as an Army officer if you successfully graduate from college. If your grades and ROTC scores are good enough you may qualify for a scholarship to pay for some or all of your university education. My understanding is that all of the Army Advanced Camp is now done at Fort Lewis, Washington. No fees, it's all free. If you enjoy games like firing artillery, rifles, pistols, throwing grenades, crawling in mud under barbed wire while machine guns fire one meter over your head, and masking in a tent full of tear gas, big fun awaits. And hikes! Oh my the friendly sergeants will get you started before it gets light. Best part is the taxpayers pay for it all. You even come home with a paycheck.. My experience was 46 years ago and very hot. I hear Fort Lewis is a bit cool and damp.

As far as Junior ROTC summer camps for high school students, to my knowledge they were discontinued about the time of the Vietnam War due to the pressure of wartime. Those were comparable to college ROTC in terms of being a fairly serious simulation of Army life. Usually they did not involve crew served weapons and focused much more on drill and ceremonies. The Army did charge for those summer camps. There was a summer camp for all of the Junior ROTC cadets from Fort Worth and Dallas at Fort Wolters in Mineral Wells. Dallas would send a special train to Mineral Wells and the cadets would march from the railroad station to Fort Wolters behind their band.

There may be some military schools grades ~7-12 offering what you are looking for, if you are the age I think you are... unless this is a joke.

[DugwayDuke]

Some might question whether this story will be of interest to many people or whether it even qualifies as a "service life" story but I hope it will jog some others' memories and bring forth a few smiles.
<snip>
Although it was not basic training, nor advanced infantry training, it was an experience comparable to enlisted life; an experience I will never forget. When I was a Navy dental officer with the Marines 5 and a half years later, unexpectedly involved in the Vietnam evacuation, most of the hospital corpsmen thought I was ex-enlisted. I took that as a great compliment and I credit my Army ROTC time - and in particular - Fort Sill - for that!

Thought I would throw in a few comments. (BTW, my first post. I joined just to add these comments.)

Your post brought back many memories. In fact, I found this post while searching for information on summer camp at Fort Sill.

You see, I did my ROTC camp at the all inclusive resort of Camp Eagle, Fort Sill as well. I was there in 1969 with 2nd Bde, Alpha Four. I was a student at the University Of Oklahoma. BTW, as I recall, this was probably the last of the big summer camps. The first draft lottery was held after this camp and enrollment in ROTC dropped precipitously. I'm thinking there was something approaching 2000 cadets there.

My reminisces are very similar to yours. Nothing changed from my time there in 1969 to your time in 1970. Here goes.

First, let me remark upon comments about being treated like enlisted versus other camps where you were treated like officers. On the next to the last day of camp, our senior company level tac (he was a LTC while the platoon tacs were mostly O4s) told us that it had been the intent of this camp to teach us what it was like to be enlisted and that governed a lot of the way things happened. For example, we had to turn in our car keys to the 1st and could only get them back for weekend passes (we got two).

Our training really wasn't much too different from yours so I'll just talk about a few of the more memorial events of 1970.

Camp life started with two days of pulling weeds. The cadre had nothing else to do with us while we waited for everyone to finish in-processing so we pulled the weeds poking there way through the gravel surrounding our GP medium tents. In-processing took place back on the main post. They examined your orders, you signed in, got a complimentary haircut, registered your car, and drew your TA-50. Then they gave you a strip map showing the way to Camp Eagle. Once you arrived there, you reported to your tac, had a brief interview, were told to stow your gear (they gave you a drawing of what went where), and were told to start pulling weeds.

Once every one was checked in, we had our first training exercise. The entire brigade put all the TA-50 back in their duffle bags and formed into one long column. We did the duffle bag drag for about two miles to this large field where the companies deployed into bivouac. This took about an hour. We were then told to erect our tents and layout our gear for inspection. The rest of the afternoon was spent rearranging things following repeated changes in how things should be done. Learned a lot from this experience. Never act on any directions until it's clear that it's too late to change anything. Then follow the last set of orders you received.

Actually, I chose to shoot the 90MM. I watched the demonstrations of the 106 and the 90 and decided neither looked particularly attractive. I decided that the best choice was the one that minimized the amount of time you had to be near the recoilless rifles. The 106 had a four man crew so you wear next to it for four firings. The 90 only had a two man crew so you only had to be next to it for two firings. Easy choice there. Firing the 90 was one of my triumphant experiences. We were firing at a line of junk cars almost a klick away. My buddy fired first and his round hit just short of the line. We carefully exchanged places so not to disturb the aim. I slid into place and oh, so carefully, nudged the aim point just a skosh higher. Hit the right front door post of a 60 model chevy. Doors, hoods, trunk cover, all went flying. Loved it. Big cheers from my fellow cadets too. I was a hero.

I noticed you didn't mention the artillery firepower shoot. We had a great one on a Saturday morning. The shoot itself was impressive since the entire III Corps artillery participated. IIRC, there were something like 160 105s firing, over a hundred 155, some 8 inch and a smattering of 175. The time on targets were impressive. It was this day that we really learned what it was to be second class citizens. I'm going to describe in detail how this happened because the ending was so enjoyable.

We were loaded on buses without breakfast and transported almost back to main post where we were herded into some large bleachers to watch the shoot. We sat there for over 90 minutes. Finally one last bus showed up and about 20 West Point Cadets got off and were seated in the front row center seats reserved for them. Then the CG, Fort Sill arrived and began his speech. He began by talking about how much he had enjoyed having breakfast with them at the Officers Club that morning. (Yes, we'd been sitting there for over almost two hours so the Pointers could finish their wonderful OClub breakfast with the CG.) Then the CG began to explain to the Pointers how great a career they would have if they choose the Artillery as their branch (they were on the tour were they decided which branch they would be in). Must have taken him 20 or 30 minutes describing how wonderful it was to be a Pointer in the Field Artillery. Not once did he mention the 2000 or so ROTC cadets in attendance or how much we would enjoy being in the artillery. That's when I learned what it's like to be treated like a 2nd class citizen.

Following the shoot, the CG once again took center stage and gave one last brief speech about Pointers in the Field Artillery. At this point, he announced that the final event would be the firing of the Honest John Rocket. He stated that two cadets would be chosen to fire the rocket. One would give the count-down and the other would push the fire button. He said that every ones name had been placed in a hat and a selected cadet would draw forth the two lucky names. At that point, he did mention that there were 2000 ROTC cadets there too and he wanted to assure us that our names were also in the hat and that we had an equal chance of being chosen. Boy, that was one big hat, wan't it? Wonder who wrote out all those names.

Well, you know where this is going. "Surprise, Surprise, Surprise" as Gomer Pyle used to say. Both names drawn were West Pointers. Do the math. What are the odds of both names come from only the West Pointers? Now here comes the fun stuff and the whole purpose for all this detail. To the delight of the assembled ROTC cadets, the West Pointers screwed it up. The Rocket flew off the rail, traveled about two klicks down range where it began to tumble and blew apart. The assembled ROTC cadets erupted in cheers and comments upon the competence of West Pointers. It was so loud the CG threatened to send in the MPs to calm us down. Loved it. Well worth missing breakfast. That's when I learned how sweet pack back can be.

Some one mentioned the great cooks they had. Ours were the worst cooks I've seen in the military. All were just back from Nam and were being released after our camp. They were not highly motivated. Our head cook was promoted to PFC about half way through camp. I later learned he'd been busted a couple of times before so making PFC wasn't that big a deal for him. After a few days, one of the Tac chewed him out for not putting on his new stripes. He put them on with a magic marker. It was hit or miss if they would show up for breakfast. A couple of times we had to open the cook tent ourselves and at least get out some cereal.

The gas tent. We were told that we would, one at a time, advance to the gas NCO at the exit to the tent. We would remove our mask, tell him our name, school, and social security number and then we would be allowed to leave. I nearly panicked when I realized I couldn't remember my SSN. Then I realized the Gas NCO didn't know it either so when it came my turn, I made one up. That taught me the power of a well orchestrated bluff.

Oh, the heat. It was over 100 by 10 AM every morning. Our PT program began in earnest when we were on the rifle range. We started afternoon runs on the hard stand. No easy build up, just started running. Each day there a few more cadets in the aid tent from heat exhaustion. This all culminated when the Sr. Tac lost out on a bet with another Sr. Tac as to whose company would have more experts on the qualification range. Our Tac lost so he force marched us back to bivouac. Must have been about 1400 in the afternoon and the temps had to be over 105 or so. Put about fifty cadets in the aid tent. (We later learned that the other company got to grade their own qualification, we didn't.)

The next day, we received our own dedicated medic. I heard the new medic explain to the Tacs that he had been sent to our company because the hospital commander was concerned by our rate of heat casualties. The new medic said the hospital commander had sent him to ensure that all post regulations and training policies were to be strictly enforced in our company. The medic explained to our Tacs that he could, upon the authority granted him by the post commander, modify, change, or cancel any training. The medic was quite respectful but he made it clear that was the way things were. The medic accompanied us on all our training and it changed significantly from that point on. We still ran, probably ran more, but the runs were in the morning. That's when I learned that some lower ranking EM can, indeed, move mountains.

I spent eight years on active duty finally retiring after another 14 in the National Guard.

[royholl3]

I was there the same summer as DugwayDuke. He is telling it like it was. I especially remember the Honest John rocket debacle; what a hoot.

The truly memorable part of my time at Camp Eagle was my Tac officer, Capt. James Hallums, USMA class of '66, airborne ranger infantry, combat veteran, piss-and-vinegar all the way. You might want to Google his name. He was eventually run out of the Army after he tried to shape up the leadership department at West Point. Capt. Hallums in 1969 also happened to be the Commandant of Cadets at my own school. Since I was the only cadet from my school who was in his platoon, he made sure no one got the idea I was receiving favorable treatment. He was rough on me until we went to the rifle range to qualify (with the M-14 rifle). Somehow I fired 61 to qualify as an expert. From then on, Capt. Hallums was a lot nicer to me. He was even tolerant of the fact that my branch was not going to be infantry, but armor, saying, "it's a ground-gaining arm."

Another incident I recall was a day we were in the field, when it began to rain. Another cadet in our platoon, Herb Mang, said to me, "Did you ever notice how, when it rains, Capt. Hallums doesn't get wet?" It was true.

[Griff Murphey]

Dugway, enjoyed your post! A couple of our guys were at the big O club at the main post when the West Pointers arrived. They came back walking down the company street twirling gray hats - probably just stole them still cool! You could get a pass to go to the O club on the post but I never did - it was about a 30 mile round trip.

Our cadet guide has a picture of Westy addressing the cadets. I always assumed he had been there in 1969. Did you get to see Westmoreland?

We did not have the firepower demonstration in 1970. Maybe ammo shortage due to the war? Maybe they shot it just for the old Gray Line.

I did see it when I was a Junior ROTC cadet in the summer of 1966. A friend of mine and I went at the suggestion of our active army SSgt commandant; in those days the high school ROTC cadre sergeants were ACDU and their summer job was supporting the college summer camps. We wore our Junior ROTC fatigue uniforms which had no US ARMY and an ROTC patch with name tape and we wore the full size sewn on hi viz nco stripes. My friend was a big burly Mexican guy who was corps sergeant major, played the part well; and I was an SFC. After we had been at the firepower demonstration for a few minutes we became aware that the enlisted men sitting next to us were treating us with great deference. We were 17! They thought we were real.

The Honest John had a countdown and "Fire!" - Nuthin... A few more tries then the announcement that due to technical
difficulties the Honest John would not be fired. Spectators were encouraged to look at the equipment on display but cautioned to "stay clear of the rear of the Honest John launcher." Recently told this story to an infantry officer and he laughed and said that the Honest John was a real joke and a totally unreliable weapon, frequently misfiring or malfunctioning.

[DugwayDuke]

Dugway, enjoyed your post! A couple of our guys were at the big O club at the main post when the West Pointers arrived. They came back walking down the company street twirling gray hats - probably just stole them still cool! You could get a pass to go to the O club on the post but I never did - it was about a 30 mile round trip.

Our cadet guide has a picture of Westy addressing the cadets. I always assumed he had been there in 1969. Did you get to see Westmoreland?

We did not have the firepower demonstration in 1970. Maybe ammo shortage due to the war? Maybe they shot it just for the old Gray Line.

I did see it when I was a Junior ROTC cadet in the summer of 1966. A friend of mine and I went at the suggestion of our active army SSgt commandant; in those days the high school ROTC cadre sergeants were ACDU and their summer job was supporting the college summer camps. We wore our Junior ROTC fatigue uniforms which had no US ARMY and an ROTC patch with name tape and we wore the full size sewn on hi viz nco stripes. My friend was a big burly Mexican guy who was corps sergeant major, played the part well; and I was an SFC. After we had been at the firepower demonstration for a few minutes we became aware that the enlisted men sitting next to us were treating us with great deference. We were 17! They thought we were real.

The Honest John had a countdown and "Fire!" - Nuthin... A few more tries then the announcement that due to technical
difficulties the Honest John would not be fired. Spectators were encouraged to look at the equipment on display but cautioned to "stay clear of the rear of the Honest John launcher." Recently told this story to an infantry officer and he laughed and said that the Honest John was a real joke and a totally unreliable weapon, frequently misfiring or malfunctioning.

The only time we saw the Officer's Club was when we rode past it on the way to some training or other. Kind of like the golf course. We got this brochure about what to expect at summer camp. One of the items said we should be sure to bring our golf clubs. We were coming back from the rifle range, riding in a 'cattle truck' when someone shouted out: "Hey guys, there's the golf course. Anyone bring their clubs."

We were pretty much confined to Camp Eagle. In the second week, they had us turn our car keys over to the cadre. (Some cadet had gone to Cache for a beer. So the solution was take our keys.) We got two weekend passes. I only got one. The Tac Officer told me to do something and I did. He pulled my pass because I didn't report back that I'd done it.

It was my understanding that the artillery shoot was a monthly event, more of a publicity thing than for training.

About ammo shortages. I was commissioned Infantry and attended IOBC in 1971 at Benning. At summer camp, they would give us 10 rounds for field exercise. At Benning we were issues so many rounds that we fired them as fast as we could so we wouldn't have to lug them around. For example, I was carrying the gun on a night ambush. I opened the ambush with a 200 round burst. I had linked 3 belts back to back. My assistant stood up and held the belt off the ground to keep it from breaking. It didn't accomplish much. They re-supplied us on the next objective with another 500 rounds.

[Griff Murphey]

Just curious, did you do much active duty? Most of my commissioning class either went to branch school and then to the reserves or were put in inactive reserve status for a few years then discharged.

You were a year ahead of me, you may have gone to Vietnam as a 2LT, Inf.

In 1975 I was sitting in the Wardroom of USS OKINAWA LPH-3 in Hong Kong Harbor I had been on the Vietnam and Cambodia evacuations with BLT 1-4 as their dental officer. The Captain comes on the 1MC and informs us that we are taking on a load of NROTC cadets from Texas A&M on their "summer cruise" and "...they are midshipman meaning they are officers and WILL BE TREATED AS SUCH!"

I was like "What is THIS CRAP!?!?"

[DugwayDuke]

Just curious, did you do much active duty? Most of my commissioning class either went to branch school and then to the reserves or were put in inactive reserve status for a few years then discharged.

You were a year ahead of me, you may have gone to Vietnam as a 2LT, Inf.

In 1975 I was sitting in the Wardroom of USS OKINAWA LPH-3 in Hong Kong Harbor I had been on the Vietnam and Cambodia evacuations with BLT 1-4 as their dental officer. The Captain comes on the 1MC and informs us that we are taking on a load of NROTC cadets from Texas A&M on their "summer cruise" and "...they are midshipman meaning they are officers and WILL BE TREATED AS SUCH!"

I was like "What is THIS CRAP!?!?"

I had an eclectic career. I was commissioned Infantry in May 70. That summer we were offered an opportunity to forgo active duty if we joined a reserve or national guard unit. At first, I joined the 4003rd Garrison Detachment. They transferred me to the Ordnance Corps. The Corps had no slots for active duty for training. Most of my job interviews were over once I told them I had a 90 day obligation for training. I shopped around and found a unit that could get me a training slot. I transferred to the 95th Infantry Division (Training) who transferred me back to the Infantry and I went to IOBC in Feb 71. I enjoyed IOBC and extended to Voluntary Indefinite status.

When I in-processed at Fort Hood, I was asked if I knew anything about rockets and missiles. I told them I had an aerospace engineering degree and two weeks later I was commanding the Corps Guided Missile Maintenance Detachment. The unit was authorized a Major, Captain, and Lt. About three months later, a qualified Ordnance Captain took command and I was reassigned as the Shop Officer. Service with this unit was a three year stabilized tour so I never saw Vietnam.

I accepted a branch transfer to the Ordnance Corps in 1973 and was sent to the Missile Maintenance Officers Course at Redstone Arsenal to learn all about the jobs I'd been doing for the last three years. After a short tour with the 2ID in Korea, I returned to Redstone where I spent the next three years in a project office developing missile systems. In 1978 I left active duty for a civil service job in another project office. I also joined the 279th Signal Battalion of the Alabama National Guard where I commanded a signal unit. After a couple of years, I branch transferred to the Signal Corps. I retired in 1992 from the NG.

Summarizing: I served eight years on active duty and another 14 in the guard. I spent my civilian career designing or manufacturing rockets and missiles. I'm finally retired last year. I had four branch transfers. I commanded an Ordnance unit as an Infantry officer. I commanded a Signal company as an Ordnance Officer. I spent about half my career serving in positions that I was not, technically, qualified for.

We had a bunch of Aggies at Camp Eagle. Some were very good guys. A very large fraction were super troopers who went out of their way to impress the cadre. They ganged together to give each other high ratings on the peer reviews.