Questions about a 2nd Allin conversion

Hey guys. A friend of mine has this rifle that he might be willing to part with, but I've never owned an Allin conversion before and wanted to get some opinions on it. It's in pretty solid condition with a good patina, except where someone has heavily cleaned the outside of barrel past the front band. The lock is dated 1864, and there are no visible serial numbers. He doesn't have a picture of the breech block markings but he said he'd dig it out of the safe and check those. What strikes me as odd about it is the location of the rear sight. It's set several inches forward of the receiver. Weren't all of these made with the rear sight immediately in front of the receiver? Thanks in advance for any help.
-DrewAttachment 42107Attachment 42108Attachment 42109Attachment 42110Attachment 42111

Actually, I think it is a Model 1868 Springfield . . . NOT a second model.

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Originally Posted by JimF

Actually, I think it is a Model 1868 Springfield . . . NOT a second model.

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Thanks JimF. It looks like you're right. It does more closely match a 1868. In that case, from what I'm reading, there should be a serial number along the left side of the receiver and barrel, which I'm not seeing in the photos, and all the photos I can find of the 1868s still have the rear sight directly in front of the receiver. Any thoughts on what's going on there? The oddest thing about it is that there's no empty mounting hole where the rear sight should have been.

That is an interesting rifle. Except for the placement of the rear sight and the lack of a serial number on the left side, it appears to my eye to be a normal production 1868 rifle. However I'm wondering if the rear sight might've been put there on that rifle as an experiment. That's about the location of the sights on the later model 1873's. :icon_scratch:

From those pictures it appears, save for the points noted, to be a perfectly standard M1868. I also note that the cleaning sits a bit too deep, and there are no stock cartouches visible on wood that should be crisp enough to at least have traces of same. I can think of only two scenarios, the first and by far the most likely being a "Bannerman" assembly made from parts for resale in the 1890s, and the second - VERY unlikely - is that it is some sort of "prototype" made prior to the standardization of the model. Fred G. has #6 (and has posted many pics of it here) and it, aside from a strange hole in the breechblock, looks like any other proper 1868, as do other early examples I've seen. Thanks for sharing.

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Originally Posted by Dick Hosmer

Fred G. has #6 (and has posted many pics of it here) and it, aside from a strange hole in the breechblock, looks like any other proper 1868

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Oh heck, I thought you'd remembered that part Dick. The strange hole in the breech block is for the firing pin retaining screw that, unlike the later 1868's and 1873's, entered the side of the firing pin channel instead of from underneath. The screw actually passes through the notch in the firing pin from side to side instead of straight into it.

http://www.jouster2.com/forums/attac...1&d=1481148704

http://www.jouster2.com/forums/attac...1&d=1481148670

http://www.jouster2.com/forums/attac...1&d=1481148631

http://www.jouster2.com/forums/attac...1&d=1481148586

Shame on me - I recalled the hole, but do not remember you 'splaining it!!! Oh well.

To the original poster - note rear sight on #6 is from a musket but located (as was the long-range sight which would follow) right ahead of the receiver. I am not aware of any genuine Springfields - outside of possibly something in the SA museum with that sight far out on the barrel.

Wow, that certainly is a head scratcher. I agree, evidence supports that it's probably a pieced together rifle. I found Fred's original thread. That #6 is NIIICE!

One question: The #6 rear sight has two peep holes, my friend's gun has one. Is that another variation of musket sight or possibly something Bannerman made?

I've asked my friend to take some more detailed pictures and check the trapdoor date and look for any other markings, but barring any interesting findings I'm pretty convinced it's a put together.

Sadly enough, he had it appraised at a VERY well known gun shop a few years ago (2011). They called it a 2nd Allen and put a $600 appraisal on it. If I could pick it up at a reasonable price I'd add it to my collection all the same, but I wouldn't want him to think I was lowballing. We'll see.

Thanks for all the help. Here's a few more pictures that he found from the appraisal.
-Drew

Attachment 42112Attachment 42113Attachment 42114

Drew, the sight appears to have an aperture for 300 yards and then at the top, a notch for 700 yards.
The aperture positioned for 500 yards doesn't appear there at all. I'm assuming that there IS a notch for 100 yards in the down position. The rear sight base is oriented in the correct way for a Rifled Musket or an 1866 trapdoor, but the sight leaf seems to be relieved in the hole and top notch on the reverse side, as if the sight leaf was reversed. I've seen this before I think on an 1866 rifle with the sight leaf's apertures reversed from what they ought to have been for a shooter, but the missing 500 yard sight aperture between the 300 and 700 yard notches is a mystery to me.

I believe you're right Fred. There's something marked below the peep, it almost looks like a 2, but I can't tell. The original pictures are huge, here's a couple snippets of it zoomed in. I can't imagine why they'd be relieved on the back side.
Attachment 42115Attachment 42116

Well it's a very nice rifle. It'd be imteresting to study it.
Dick is right about it possibly being assembled by a surplus arms merchant.
Ain't it interesting though!!!

The one at this link (I hope that's OK to post since it's a long closed auction) also has the reverse-relieved apertures, although it has both of them. https://www.gunauction.com/buy/11150246

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Originally Posted by Fred

Well it's a very nice rifle. It'd be imteresting to study it.
Dick is probably right about it possibly being assembled by a surplus arms merchant.
Ain't it interesting though!!!

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Sure enough. I believe I'll pass on it unless I can get it for a good price, but I don't think he'll come too far off of his appraisal (a shame they misidentified it).

I'm convinced I'll be buying something from his collection, and he has nice 1860 Army and a REALLY nice cased 1849 pocket that my wife might shoot me with if I buy.

Thanks for all the help. I'll let you know if I find anything else interesting on it. Hopefully I'll get a chance to have a look at it in person.

-Drew

Another odd thing I just noticed... Like Fred's #6, this one doesn't appear to have the standard stock cutout for the thumb latch (looking at the pictures, I'm not sure if it has one at all). Weird.

This may have been covered already, but are there any marks on the top of the door?

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Originally Posted by 70ish

This may have been covered already, but are there any marks on the top of the door?

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He's going to get it out and check tonight. I made him a sketch of where to look and asked him to check for any other markings on the rifle.

I also believe my 1866 has the leaf reversed. I don't have a picture on my PC that shows the leaf up but there is no relief on the side showing while it is down. How common was this? I'll have to check it out when I get home from travels.

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Originally Posted by CPC

I also believe my 1866 has the leaf reversed. I don't have a picture on my PC that shows the leaf up but there is no relief on the side showing while it is down. How common was this? I'll have to check it out when I get home from travels.

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It certainly looks like it. At least, it's definitely not relieved on the downrange side. I'm not familiar with the musket sights (both of mine have Buffingtons), but it wouldn't be possible to reverse the leaf without reversing the whole sight would it? The long range leaf doesn't look like a separate piece, it looks like it would have to have been manufactured that way.

I think I may have a lead on the mystery of the one hole sight leaf. Al Fresca had them listed (all are sold) on his site as M67 Cadet rear sights. But,
was there such a thing as an M67 cadet rifle? All I can find info on is the 1866 cadet and 1869 cadet.
http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/TrapdoorSights.html

The M1866 sights are a puzzle. They can occur with the sight reliefs facing either way. Of course the base (which utilizes a dovetail and one spanner-head screw) only goes one way on the barrel. It must follow the barrel dovetail. This also affects the pivot screw being towards the muzzle or the breech. Muskets, and the M1865 (1st Allin) have the pivot screw, and dovetail, to the rear. The M865 has one hole in the leaf and one notch at the top.

The M1866 with its' two holes in the leaf (and the subsequent models of 1868 and 1870 which have a similar base but entirely different long-range leaf) have the screw and dovetail in the front. The "correct" orientation of the relief cuts would be toward the muzzle, so as to present the sharpest picture to the shooter's eye. Therefore, the reliefs should be visible when the leaf is down, but not all are.

The "1867" cadet is a term of collector convenience, since they have special (thin) lockplates bearing that date only, whereas all other early TDs use the normal musket plate, dated 1862-1865. It is a completely miniaturized (even the band-springs are shorter!) version of the M1866 rifle, whereas the M1869 cadet is simply a shortened (but not extensively reworked) version of the M1868 service rifle. The 1867 has the sight pivot to the front, and, like the M1865, has but one hole in the leaf.

Hope that helps.

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Originally Posted by Dick Hosmer

The M1866 sights are a puzzle. They can occur with the sight reliefs facing either way. Of course the base (which utilizes a dovetail and one spanner-head screw) only goes one way on the barrel. It must follow the barrel dovetail. This also affects the pivot screw being towards the muzzle or the breech. Muskets, and the M1865 (1st Allin) have the pivot screw, and dovetail, to the rear. The M865 has one hole in the leaf and one notch at the top.

The M1866 with its' two holes in the leaf (and the subsequent models of 1868 and 1870 which have a similar base but entirely different long-range leaf) have the screw and dovetail in the front. The "correct" orientation of the relief cuts would be toward the muzzle, so as to present the sharpest picture to the shooter's eye. Therefore, the reliefs should be visible when the leaf is down, but not all are.

The "1867" cadet is a term of collector convenience, since they have special (thin) lockplates bearing that date only, whereas all other early TDs use the normal musket plate, dated 1862-1865. It is a completely miniaturized (even the band-springs are shorter!) version of the M1866 rifle, whereas the M1869 cadet is simply a shortened (but not extensively reworked) version of the M1868 service rifle. The 1867 has the sight pivot to the front, and, like the M1865, has but one hole in the leaf.

Hope that helps.

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I'm in awe of your knowledge of the subject. I appreciate all the help.
-Drew

You might enjoy my 2006 guide book on the early TDs. $16.95 to POB 1367 Colusa CA 95932.

For $42.90 I'll send both of my TD books, signed. The second half of the work (covering the rare .45-70s) was just published on 8-21.

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Originally Posted by Dick Hosmer

You might enjoy my 2006 guide book on the early TDs. $16.95 to POB 1367 Colusa CA 95932.

For $42.90 I'll send both of my TD books, signed. The second half of the work (covering the rare .45-70s) was just published on 8-21.

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Sure. I'll take the signed set. I'll have my wife mail a check today.
-Drew

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Originally Posted by 70ish

This may have been covered already, but are there any marks on the top of the door?

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The trapdoor is marked with the eagle proof and 1870. He confirmed that there aren't any visible serial numbers. I wonder if Bannerman or whoever was building these got the leftover parts from Springfield? I guess they put whatever sights they had on hand in the more forward location like the newer rifles?

Here's a similar one with a two leaf site and newer stock. Strange. https://www.gunauction.com/buy/13092261