Are M1917 stocks identical to P14 stocks?
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Are M1917 stocks identical to P14 stocks?
The magazine well is different.
The reason for my question - There is a minty Winchester M1917 stock, minus the hand guards, being auctioned on EBay that is currently sitting at $400 and it ends today at 2208 hrs eastern. With 10 bidders hammering away, I expect it will go for north of $500. I thought about bidding but there's nothing really wrong with the stock that my M'17 is currently wearing other than its not a W. My rifle shoots accurately so I have no bedding issues. Investing more money, especially when we're getting close to the average value of a M1917 rifle, doesn't make a lot of sense.
People are putting together all matching part number guns.
Good clean stock of the right mfg if it does not have any marks on it are virtually impossible to find but are the required item if you are presenting a rifle as original.
Frankly its a toss up on mis- characterization (or a fake) or building into something pretty cool.
I saw a bayonet go for $450 that was purported to be original, it was not, so its a buyer beware and some proof of provanance.
The original P14 stock was a different animal with volley sight and different profile. When the P14s were rearsenaled surplus M1917stocks were used. If memory serves the Brits had started to loose interest and did not invest in a lot of replacement wood. My rearsenaled P14 is done so. I’ve had both apart and swapped stocks and each worked on the other. An original P14 stock in good shape brings stupid money.
The Winchester M1917 minty stock up for auction on eBay sold for an astounding $670.
Wow. Thats ridiculous. I bought a Winchester M1917 for 700.00! It seems that's a better business to sell it by parts than complete...
H Quiles, I also bought mine for that price. To see the stock on eBay, look under "M1917 Winchester stock" and go to "Sold Listing" on the left column. It's not posted yet. Probably will be later today.
The stock appears to be in unused condition with a small W stamped on the side and a W 20 on the front tip. (Not sure what the 20 means.) It also has a good eagle inspector's stamp. There's only one handling ding on the side near the small W stamping, but it's really big and deep and (believe it or not) probably suppressed the final selling price. Now that it sold for $670 with the ding, what's a perfect W stock worth?
Hmmm I sold several M1917s complete for not more than that this year. Someone wanted that W stock and someone else kind of wanted it.
P246, I watched the final few minutes of the eBay auction. There were 10 or more bidders going back and forth. I checked to see who won after it was all over and it was someone who had only one bid. He was a sniper who placed the winning bid with only a few seconds left.
Must have a Winny had a sported stock or an E or R marked one. Still seems like a ton of money,
I just looked under "Sold Listings" and the stock is now there. It is a ton of money especially with some damage. The gouge on the left side looks way too deep to be drawn out with heat and moisture. A knowledgable stock or furniture refinisher might be able to fill it in and make it look like the rest of the stock for a few hundred dollars.Quote:
Originally Posted by p246
Its not the damage, its the un-issued with no stamps you have to sand out and make a dent.
I have a couple of R stocks and no damage. Hanging onto them for when I need to buy something.
You can guy all the guns you want, but the stocks will have the usual (and honorable) service wear and tear and cost a lot to clean up. You still have to sand the stamps off and then cover that up.
The days of the cheap stuff are gone.
I sold a 1903A3 for over 1000. You simply do not find un-issued 1903A3 in that condition regardless of what the collectors claims (and sometime get at rare sales)..
The lurk for years and strike. Average guy with no contacts stands no chance.
I got really lucky with the purchase of my W M1917 and my R 03-A3. Both came from Cabelas Gun Library in Wheeling, WV. Both have excellent bores, throats, muzzles and headspace and are excellent shooters.Quote:
Originally Posted by RC20
The (Nov. 15, 1017) M1917's trigger action was functional but had either worn or poorly fitting E and R parts that were easily and inexpensively replaced with NOS W parts from eBay or on-line parts dealers. It currently wears a nicely fitting and unworn and undamaged non-W stock (stamped with a T on the fore end) and an E bolt. It's built like a tank and is the rifle I enjoy shooting the most.
The (April, 1943) 03-A3 was completely covered with cosmo when I bought it. Once it was removed, I found a rifle that had obviously gone through a rebuild process because of the two easily replaced external SC parts it had (butt plate and barrel band). It had a worn non-functioning extractor that was also easy to replace. I kept the replacement BF bolt and the non original stock that had been replaced, probably after the war, with a later 03-A3 stock with recoil bolts instead of pins. It has two small surface dents but has an excellent finish otherwise. The metallic parts were Parkerized and showed zero surface wear. I suspect it probably went directly into storage after it was rebuilt. I had to tinker with the rear sight a lot to find the zero, but it holds it well and is very accurate. Except for the non-original bolt and stock, it looks unissued.
Back to being the same: No, the diameter of the P14 is smaller in diameter, I know, it is believed P14 BARRELS WERE USED ON M1917S.
F. Guffey
F Guffey:
First you do not supply any context here? So what are you talking about?
ID or OD of the barrel?
If OD I would like to see measurements.
There is a difference between the myth thing that they just used 303 bore (they did not) vs what the outside diameter of the rifle barrel was.
I see no one saying the 303 bore was used in the 1917.
As the 276 cartridge was a modern high pressure round, the 303 was an easy conversion by a boring change from the Pattern 13 .276 caliber and the same was true of the 30-06 x 1917. Just a boring change.
While its possible barrel diameter was changed, I have yet to see solid data that says it was.
[QUOTE=RC20;519379]F Guffey:
Quote:
First you do not supply any context here? So what are you talking about?
ID or OD of the barrel?
I have a P14 chambered to a 30/06 and I have a P14 chambered to 308 Norma Mag and I am building two M1917s or P14s chambered to 8MM338 Winchester Mags.
It seems you are talking about something you have never seen.
http://www.constitution.org/col/blind_men.htm
F. Guffey
And the price of tea in Tibet?
You can put any barrel with the right threads on a P14.
Does not tell us what the OD of the original P17 barrel is. So tell is, what is the OD, rear, front. Mid point.
Instead of trying to be cute, simply tell us what the setup is.
What I do see is you like to talk in such a twisted manner a cray super computer could not figure out what you mean.
I thought I would post this photo of an attempt to put an early Winchester P14 barrel on an early Eddystone P14 by a home gunsmith. You can see that even within the manufacturers P14 barrels were different in in OD size. I did use that barrel on another early Winchester P14 that I had and it fit the stock and action body perfectly.
Attachment 43011
You sure it is not the wood?......regards...alex
I posted pictures of my rearsenaled P14 and M1917 in the past. In just the two examples I have they interchange and fit fine. It’s my understanding that the Brits did not have replacement stocks for P14s that were rearsenaled in preperation for WW2. M1917 replacement stocks were procured for that purpose. If any alterations were made that’s unknown to me. The original whale belly P14 stock was an odd duck.
I read that whale belly stocks, if I picture what you mean, were only made by Eddystone. The r and w stock looked like regular m17 stocks.
Positive it's not the wood -- I put a brand new Criteron P14 barrel on and it fitted perfectly on to the Eddystone.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhawk2
P245-- The Brits made replacement stocks without the volley sights for replacement. That not to say that if a shortage of P14 stocks occurred that unserviceable M1917 were cannibalized for their stocks. You are not far off the mark about the Brits using M1917 parts for their P14s. The Brits did obtain a number of M1917 firing pins and re-manufactured them to fit their P14s.Quote:
Originally Posted by p246
If the wood was originally for an M1917 and put on a P14 the magazine well area will be poorly fit as the mag well is slightly bigger on a M1917 than a P14. My P14 is wearing a 1917 stock, who knows when it was done. The cleaning rod holes are supposed to be different also, but I can’t remember the difference. The Weedon contract stocks were locally sourced in Britain. I,m looking for an old article that I have somewhere that suggest post Weedon Britain source some left over M1917 stocks.
- - - Updated - - -
The Whale belly on the early P14s were made on all three. I had a Winchester P14 drill rifle with its original whale belly stock. The lower forearm was very wide with a distinct line cut going up at about 40 degrees from in front of magazine well forward. The rifle still had its volley sights. Sold it for a very good profit. Should have kept pictures. It’s my understanding one big complaint of the early P14 was weight. The whale belly went away to shave weight, and the volley sights were antiquated when they entered service.Quote:
Originally Posted by tmark
The belly was for ammo capacity.
If it was shaved off then the rounds went to under 5 in a 303.
Keep in mind it was intended for 270 caliber P13 and more rounds with rebated rim.
Oddly you could load 1 more 30-06 into it (6)
The SMLE has a larger external mag that held 10 (rapid firing)
The Belly just hit the blind magazine or it would have stuck out as well.
SMLE was a two piece stock, the others one.
From what I gather the "whale belly" stocks were only used on the early Eddystone P14s. These whale belly stocks are easily identified as having no finger grooves in the foreend part of the stock and also a clearance cut for the volley sights when elevated. (Side note: The replacement P14 stocks manufactured in the GB near WWII also did not have finger grooves and also no volley sight cuts. They were not made from American Black Walnut.) Winchester and Remingtons did not have these type of stocks when manufactured in the US. Eddystone later which to the same type of stocks as the Winchester and Remington. Since your Winchester P14 drill rifle had an early Eddystone stock, it was probably fitted later in its service life as there was no replacements to be had. Normally the Early Eddystone stock would not be a drop in fit on the Winchester P14 as the Magazine Case is quite different than the Eddystone and Remington built rifles. But was probably hand fitted. It a shame you did not keep the pictures.
Yep I,m kicking my own ass especially since this thread popped up. Anything is possible with a drill rifle and I made no notes on markings. I remember the stock was not as dark as my M1917, but it was not birch. maybe English walnut?Quote:
Originally Posted by fjruple
Quote:
And the price of tea in Tibet?
I can, again, I have my doubts you have ever seen one. I walked into a shop and was told by the smith/builder he has sworn off of P14s, I had to ask why because he had built 100s of rifle using the M1917 and P14 receivers. I explained the difference and I explained where to cut/mill and I told him how much to mill. When finished his life was much simpler. Stock: He was using custom order stocks and bench rest type barrels, for many years he has purchased piles of parts from a gun store, I told the gun parts store owner we had plans for P14 barrels, he offered a few saying he had 250+ barrels.Quote:
You can put any barrel with the right threads on a P14.
The P14 barrel is a SA barrel, if you have one measure it; if you have a M1917 rifle measure the diameter of the barrel and then compare the difference in diameter between the two. All you gotta do? The 303 barrel face started out as flat and then they added gas escape cuts. The M1917 has an extractor cut. And then there is case head protrusion and unsupported case head.
And for most measuring a taper is all but impossible to measure by reloaders, most reloaders get silly when 'the datum' is mentioned so I will not mention 'the datum'.
F. Guffey
I found this picture in a weapons book of a P14. While not the greatest picture , it does show a bulge in the stock behind the grasping grooves. Somewhat reminiscent of a bulge in the magazine area of a Johnson rifle.
Could this be a whale belly stock?Attachment 45358
Bear - The whale body or fat belly stocks have no finger grooves.
Ok, got it.
The attempt by the home smith to use the stock required filling the hole caused by the DP, meaning the barrel was drilled through the chamber. They did not bother to remove the wood, they drilled the hole through both pieces of wood.Quote:
I thought I would post this photo of an attempt to put an early Winchester P14 barrel on an early Eddystone P14 by a home gunsmith
There are a few smiths that have tools for opening the barrel channel; I guess it proves there is something about all of this that is not fair to all. I have never seen a P14 with a large barrel channel and my fellow members of this forum have never seen a barrel from a M1917 that did not fit both stocks, the P14 and the M1917.
The last time I looked I had 7 scrapers for cutting barrel channels, all with different diameters cutters and from two different manufacturers. I had a friend that was complaining about replacing his cutter disc, I asked him for his old cutters. And then I told him if the old dull cutters were my cutters I would sharpen them.
F. Guffey