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Originally Posted by
cplnorton
John probably has way more info than I could ever find. But this is what I have found so far by going back through the documents and interviews of the time.
The first use of a scoped 1903 service rifle on the Marine team was in 1909 at the Sea Girth NJ match. It said that 1stSgt Victor Czegka attached a scope to his service rifle at Sea Girt and practiced with it, and then took that rifle to the Wimbledon Cup in 1909 and won the cup with it. I've been trying to find a pic of that rifle for two weeks now, but can't find it.
It wasn't an A5, because he had to make his own mounts (I think we are reading the same book).
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The reason being, the first time the Winchester A5 scope was ever showcased by Winchester was at Sea Girth in 1909.
Now where did you find that? The first time the A5 showed up in Winchester's catalog was 1910.
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So you have a report of a Marine attaching a scope to his service rifle at Sea Girth, and a report of the first time Winchester brought demos of the A5 scope at the same match in June 1909. Now I have no clue if that is what he used or not. Just a observation and a coincidence until it can be proven right or wrong. It just describes it as a telescope he mounted himself. I figured he had to have his picture taken being the first Marine to ever win the Wimbledon Cup. But if I can find that, that might be a clue. But that was the first use of a scoped Marine 1903 team rifle I can find.
I found his winning pic, but the rifle he is holding does not have a scope (yes, I know he used a scope). Bear in mind this match was not the NM, although Jacksonville (not Sea Girt) did host the NM's at least twice later on.
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I can find other mentions of them using the scoped 1903's at the Wimbledon Cup pre WWI as well. When I researched the cup it looks like it began in 1875 and was held pretty much ever year since. In 1907 the rules of the Cup changed and it became a competition that was 20 shots at a 1000 yards with any rifle. So any rifle, scoped or not, was legal after 1907. But it seems to the be the only competition I can find where competitors could use a scoped rifle if they wanted to. But here are the winners I can find from that 1909 time period to 1918.
Wimbledon Cup - yes, NM's - no.
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The other other reference I find to them using the Telescoped 1903 besides the Cup, pre WWI, was they were a training tool. And this is probably the primary purpose of them honestly. It makes the most sense. The interviews I have read, said they could put them in the hands of a team shooter, and looking through the telescope at long distances, it would help them control holding the rifle more steady. They said looking through the magnification it was easier to see how little movements effected your shot at a 1000 yards. And it sounds like they were used for snapping in. As they practiced trigger pull looking through the scope, to see how trigger pull affected the movement of the crosshairs on the target. So it honestly sounds like they might not have been shot that much. But I've found several mentions of them doing this in 1916 and before, and even a mention in 1913. In 1919, when the teams reformed, they continued the practice. In fact in 1919, they detail that they have (40) of these telescoped 1903's set up to train on holding the rifle steady, that were available to the rifle team. I have not yet found a reference to how many they had pre WWI.
But yeah that is the most I can come up with so far on them using them pre WWI. But I will keep digging, but from everything I have read so far, it just sounds like they had the scoped rifles almost as soon as they switched form the Krag to the Springfield in competitions in 1908/09.
Yes, I have no doubt they used scoped rifles in matches allowing AR, AS's., but we are talking about a rifle that may have been issued to them in August of 1909 for use in the Camp Perry NM's. The Corps would not have scoped it for the NM's as there were no NM matches allowing scopes that year, so the question is - did they scope it later? I personally don't believe the scope was available in August of 1909. Some of the patents for the A5 are dated in 1910, and the earliest drawings I can find of the "Marine mounts" are dated 1926. I believe the A5 was not available until 1910. One might want to consider the rifle was scoped after 1909.
Using a scope as a training aid to magnify tremors was started by USMC Capt. Garland Fay in 1916.
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Like you said, this is going to take a lot of research. You probably don't even want to know how much money and time it has cost me to find even these snippets. lol This era is a nightmare to research as you already well know.
Oh, we know all right. Been there, done that. But look at how much one learns in cases like this.
jt