View Full Version : The Sissification of the Service Rifle- time to vent.
Plain Old Dave
05-12-2010, 07:58
Getting back in (or at least wanting to) after a prolonged absence, and note to my eternal dismay and disgust that the gamesters (with apologies to COL Cooper) have taken over.
Starting a RF string with an empty chamber and already in position?
15 pound mouseguns?
Wissky Tango Foxtrot?
What in the name of Chesty Puller happened to the most fun you could have on a firing line?
Edit: Checked with the NRA people and apparently they had started granting medical waivers to people that couldn't hack dropping into sitting /prone and so decided to eliminate the Drop. Personally, I hope I would have the grace to retire from a sport I can no longer physically compete in or stay in good enough condition to be able to compete without cheating and changing the rules. Senior citizens regularly run marathons and run all 26-odd miles, so it is absolutely possible to stay in robust enough shape to be able to hack the Drop. HOWEVER, the M1 was not designed to be fed any other way but Condition One or Two. I hope nobody gets M1 Thumb from following this dumb new rule in attempting to load an M1 and keep 'er in Condition Three; IMHO that's a mishap waiting to happen and I fully intend to follow the petition procedures and get this ill-advised change un-done for 2011.
For the time being, though, starting in position should get me enough lead to humiliate the Mousegunners Saturday. Last match I shot at this location was under the old rules with a K31 Schmidt-Rubin and I came in second place (was only beat by an M14).
Collector497
05-12-2010, 01:06
Everything started going downhill when they took away our M-1s and they gave us those wussy M-14s.
I agree that it's a wimp-out. Part of the whole game should be physical fitness, IMHO. Unfortunately the shooting sports seem to be dominated by old and/or fat guys. It's not often that I see a fit 19-year old buck on the firing line. (Actually a lot of the 19-year olds are pretty fat in our society too).
About 2 years ago on the line during the President's Match at Perry there was an old, thin but out of shape chain-smoking hillbilly on the line with a Garand. Must've been in his 60s. During the prep period for sit rap he tried to get down into a cross-legged position (all slinged up tight) couldn't, and pretty much rolled over backwards with the muzzle pointing behind the line at us and couldn't get back up without the range officer and me helping. The RO as all freaked out that he might do the same thing with a hot rifle, so they let him start in position.
All of this happened right in front of Jim Owens from jarheadtop.com, who was a referee. I suspect that these kind of events prompted the rule change.
John Kepler
05-12-2010, 06:45
Getting back in (or at least wanting to) after a prolonged absence, and note to my eternal dismay and disgust that the gamesters (with apologies to COL Cooper) have taken over.
Based on this rant.....that "absence" has to have been measured in DECADES. Most of what you're bitching about has been SOP since the late 1980's!
Starting a RF string with an empty chamber and already in position?
Starting in position is new, and is only the current rules in NRA, not CMP Service Rifle. As for the empty chamber....that's been the rule for at least 30 years for everything but a Garand! You may need to get out a little more!
15 pound mouseguns?
Dude....my XC M14 that I shot in the 80's weighs more than that.....so did yours if you were smart and had a decent barrel! BTW, 15 lbs is light for a competition AR....16-17 is more the norm!
HOWEVER, the M1 was not designed to be fed any other way but Condition One or Two. I hope nobody gets M1 Thumb from following this dumb new rule in attempting to load an M1 and keep 'er in Condition Three;
And just who in serious competition (other than Maury, that is) shoots an M1? 97% of the rifles shooting Service Rifle at the Nationals last year were AR's. In the Games Matches....who cares as long as it's safe! You are demanding a solution that is largely in search of a problem to solve!
IMHO that's a mishap waiting to happen and I fully intend to follow the petition procedures and get this ill-advised change un-done for 2011.
Lotsa luck...and of course the game is completely rigged....but if you don't play, you can't win! So go for it....get your boxers in a bunch....rant to your hearts content! But be advised....bigger dogs than you have already chased that particular rabbit around the woods and gotten nowhere! Don't like it....shoot CMP!
I am curious as to who the fat old guys are that are dominating high power! :-)
Well, John, I didn't mean dominate the SCORING. I meant dominate bullet buying, gun shows, and trigger pulling. True enough the winners at Perry tend to be fit -- (not coincidentally part of the Army rifle team, too).
Very impressive credentials, I must admit. I regard it as an honor to have beat you in the Garand match last year. [Don't worry, ya beat me in everything else! :-) ]
Plain Old Dave
05-15-2010, 11:37
Back in from the match... With a rack grade WRA Dane and part Talon ammo and part Dane ball, I shot a 384-5x. Got shook up midway through the 600 portion and was finalizing a zero on the fly in the early strings. I do take solace in knowing I wasn't in last place. Next match is a CMP fun shoot/practice at 200yd in 2 weeks.
ballbags
05-15-2010, 04:59
Everything started going downhill when they took away our M-1s and they gave us those wussy M-14s.
Excuse me, Wussy M14 I have more than 40 and less than 60 M1's ,several M1a/M14
There is absolutely Nothing WUSSY about M14's
Rodd Knox
05-17-2010, 07:27
I don't think he is calling the M14 a sissy gun. He's just funnin on how every generation looks back fondly to the Good Ol Days that never were. I remember an old Marine telling me about back in his day the old timers carried on about losing their 1903s and having to carry the ugly a$$ gas operated mess called the M1.
John Kepler
05-17-2010, 08:13
Yeah! My Grandpa was one of them!
tony1950
05-17-2010, 09:52
Why would you want to deny someone, because of their age, or silght infirmity that they love doing? It never ceases to amaze me in all the shooting sports that I have been involved with in my life, there are always the self appointed experts, professionals, or whatever name you want to give them. I learned more about shooting from " these OLD guys" than anyone. The reason I say this is that for years I helped an OLD FRIEND with his trap shooting. Carried his shotgun while he and his walker moved from station to station. He was 93 when he passed, and I miss those days. Remember that when you try to hold to your youth, and someone tells you NO.
John Kepler
05-17-2010, 05:28
I will go along with this sentiment up to the point where it begins to subvert the intent of the sport. NRA has done that and then some. The very best of the "Old Guys" know when the time has come to hang-up the cleats....others demand that we change the nature of the game to accommodate their increasing decrepitude. I admire the former and hold the later in contempt.
Tony1950 (if that's your birthdate I understand why you might be sensitive about the "old" thing) this is not intended to insult old guys. I'm not "young" but I'm not "old" either. Aging sucks and I try to stay fit (many don't). My eyes cannot keep up with young bucks -- should I be able to shoot with a scope while they use irons??
The rules of game shouldn't be changed. If you can't keep up with the rules, you get disqualified. That's life. Nobody stays on top of their game forever. Gordie Howe played hockey until he was 50 or something like that, but the didn't change the rules for him. He was just one very tough bastard. If you can do it, then do it. If you can't then shoot benchrest or something.
In a sport that is supposed to approximate combat shooting, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to hit the ground from standing before they pull the trigger. If someone can't do something as simple as that, then... they should play checkers.
Plainly stated , if you cant get down on the deck or any of the four its time to hang it up and let the rest of play with our 03's , M1's and even M14"s Dang dont change the sport cuz somebody got fat and lazy!
Rodd Knox
05-18-2010, 06:57
Plainly stated , if you cant get down on the deck or any of the four its time to hang it up and let the rest of play with our 03's , M1's and even M14"s Dang dont change the sport cuz somebody got fat and lazy!
OK no changes for the fat and lazy but where do you stand on the old and arthritic? Fat and lazy can be avoided but we're all on our way to the other other scenerio. Recreational soccer and base ball handle it with Over 30, Over 40 and (imagine) Over 50 leagues where the level of competition slows down and in some instances the rules are changed in consideration of the work hardened hips, knees and ankles. Point is - these people aren't expecting to play the same game as the 20 year olds and most of all not expecting that the rules of the young man's game will change to suit them. They don't take their ball and go home - they just find a different way to compete and have fun. There's got to be ways to keep shooting without expecting the rules to change to let a guy drive his Cadillac up to his position, roll down the window and rest his rifle on the door so he can stay in the game.
I was just thinking of puttng a rest on the door of my ol pontiac and bringing a doctors release for it ;)
Plain Old Dave
05-18-2010, 08:27
I will go along with this sentiment up to the point where it begins to subvert the intent of the sport. NRA has done that and then some. The very best of the "Old Guys" know when the time has come to hang-up the cleats....others demand that we change the nature of the game to accommodate their increasing decrepitude. I admire the former and hold the later in contempt.
EXACTLY. IMHO Richard Petty should have retired NLT 1987-88. His last few years in the car basically put Petty Racing in the "also-ran" category they are in to this day. You could probably say the same about Joe Montana or any number of athletes in any sport that stay too far past their prime. Over in the field of music, I heard Tina Turner said at one point she was going to quit doing rock and roll when she turned 50 as she felt it was 'undignified'.
Fellers, it ya can't hack the Drop, it's time to coach the youngsters or take up another shooting sport.
Maury Krupp
05-18-2010, 11:11
They don't have to quit. I don't want them to quit. More people on the firing line is always more better.
If it takes special rules for special cases/groups that's OK by me. There are a bunch of special groups already. What difference would one more make?
But don't change the rules to put me in that special group when I don't want or need to be.
Maury
mdoerner
05-18-2010, 03:34
Why not institute a "points penalty" for not dropping into position? This would compensate for the advantage of remaining in position. A 5 or 10 point penalty for each stage ought to do it. It would only subtract 20-30 points from the end result, out of 500.
Mike Doerner
PS Are we so clumsy and forgetful to keep muzzles downrange and safeties on until we're in position? Has there ever bee a negligent discharge before dropping into position?
Collector497
05-18-2010, 04:23
If it takes special rules for special cases/groups that's OK by me. There are a bunch of special groups already. What difference would one more make?
Multiple special category groups exist (police, junior, etc.) but they still shoot the same course of fire with the same rifle as everybody else. Not only do they compete within their own category, they also compete for the overall prize.
The problem with making special rules for some but not others is that it begins to get difficult to decide when to stop. The fear that many have is that the sport will be changed so much to cater to a minority that highpower will become something very different and lose that link to it's history.
Collector497
05-18-2010, 04:25
I don't think he is calling the M14 a sissy gun. He's just funnin on how every generation looks back fondly to the Good Ol Days that never were. I remember an old Marine telling me about back in his day the old timers carried on about losing their 1903s and having to carry the ugly a$$ gas operated mess called the M1.
Somebody gets it. A sense of humor is important when reading message boards.
Maury Krupp
05-18-2010, 05:10
...The fear that many have is that the sport will be changed so much to cater to a minority that highpower will become something very different and lose that link to it's history.
Which is exactly what has happened in NRA matches.
The ability to quickly assume a good position and fire a good rapidfire string has been a part of highpower rifle shooting since its inception.
Now it's gone :(
For everyone :( :(
All because the situation was forced into a choice between telling some people to "hang it up" or eliminating the requirement.
Maury
Plain Old Dave
05-19-2010, 07:57
This is not a choice, really.
Did NASCAR shorten the races because Richard Petty got too old to hack being in the car for a whole race?
Did the NFL change their rules so that Joe Montana would only play touch football the last few years he was playing?
The answer is simple, and is one the money-grubbers at the NRA won't hear:
"I have this medical issue that prevents me from dropping into position."
"I'm sorry, those are the rules. If you can't compete according to them, please enjoy observing the match."
Maury Krupp
05-19-2010, 09:32
Quickly assuming a good position and firing a good string is (was) a basic skill and an important part of highpower competition. Particularly Service Rifle competition.
But not as basic or important as putting shots in the middle of the target.
CMP saw this and decided to retain the standing-to-position requirement.
But even then they had the sense to make allowances.
For EIC and National Trophy matches when the whole story is "I have this medical condition that prevents me from dropping into position. It's called getting my f'ing legs blown off by an IED" CMP rightly allows those shooters to stay in position.
Standing in the Games matches has been optional for years. All it takes is a request to the range officer prior to the string. Nothing formal, no paperwork, no review. This has allowed many shooters to remain active and hasn't done any harm to the either the Games or the discipline as a whole.
Clearly it's possible to retain standing-to-position as a part of the course of fire without it being an all or none proposition.
The only thing you get from saying "all" is fewer people on the firing line; the only thing you get from "none" is fewer skilled riflemen.
Maury
John Sukey
05-19-2010, 04:20
to all those who say exemptions should be banned, just keep in mind that you will get to that time in life as well. Do you intend to sign a statement that you will sell off all those nasty rifles and take up dominos and shuffleboard instead?
John Kepler
05-20-2010, 01:54
No....but there are other things I can do with my rifles than shoot Highpower Service Rifle and demand that the rules be adjusted to my level of decrepitude! "Shoot" is also a verb....and there will be a time in EVERYONE'S life when you have to hang up the cleats.....hopefully with a certain amount of grace.
John, you've told me on numerous occasions that you are not a competition shooter....so how can you pass judgement on those of us that have been doing it for decades?
I also realize that at some point, I wont be able to compete at the top level of the game, or my top level, but thats part of the game. If my eyesight goes, why should I get to move the targets closer, or run a scope or if I get the shakes from my meds, why should I get to use a rest and still have a chance at winning just the same as those that have to do it the "hard way? Might as well lower the basketball rim so white guys that cant jump like me can dunk the ball and play in the NBA.
Noone said those that cant stand to sit, or cant see, etc cant play, but if you cant play like everyone else, you dont get to take home the National Championship like everyone else.....
I dont expect anyone to change the rules from me when my old ass gets to the point I cant compete any longer, why should anyone else? If I f' myself up in a car wreck, I shouldnt get the rules changed. If I dont practice and cant hit the broadside of a barn, I shouldnt get the rules changed. If I get fat and cant sit and shoot, I shouldnt get the rules changed.
Pretty simple if you ask me.
John
Plain Old Dave
05-20-2010, 02:42
No....but there are other things I can do with my rifles than shoot Highpower Service Rifle and demand that the rules be adjusted to my level of decrepitude! "Shoot" is also a verb....and there will be a tme in EVERYONE'S life when you have to hang up the cleats.....jopefully with a certain amount of grace.
THANK YOU! If I am in decent enough condition when I'm 80 to compete IAW the rules, I will. If I can't, I will find a Junior team to impart my wisdom to. Done deal.
This I can agree with. Don't stop me from playing but "I" understand the rules are what they are and I don't get my own set to play by.
John
They don't have to quit. I don't want them to quit. More people on the firing line is always more better.
If it takes special rules for special cases/groups that's OK by me. There are a bunch of special groups already. What difference would one more make?
But don't change the rules to put me in that special group when I don't want or need to be.
Maury
Maury,
You are my hero!
All the best to you...Prost
Brian aka "Sights"
Based on this rant.....that "absence" has to have been measured in DECADES. Most of what you're bitching about has been SOP since the late 1980's!
Starting in position is new, and is only the current rules in NRA, not CMP Service Rifle. As for the empty chamber....that's been the rule for at least 30 years for everything but a Garand! You may need to get out a little more!
Dude....my XC M14 that I shot in the 80's weighs more than that.....so did yours if you were smart and had a decent barrel! BTW, 15 lbs is light for a competition AR....16-17 is more the norm!
And just who in serious competition (other than Maury, that is) shoots an M1? 97% of the rifles shooting Service Rifle at the Nationals last year were AR's. In the Games Matches....who cares as long as it's safe! You are demanding a solution that is largely in search of a problem to solve!
Lotsa luck...and of course the game is completely rigged....but if you don't play, you can't win! So go for it....get your boxers in a bunch....rant to your hearts content! But be advised....bigger dogs than you have already chased that particular rabbit around the woods and gotten nowhere! Don't like it....shoot CMP!
Hey John,
Elloquent is as always.
Hope you are well,
Brian aka "Sights"
I'm not really "anyone" in this world but I'll share a thought that's been rolling around in my noggin, that may touch on this subject, a little.
If someone is getting too 'seasoned' to make all the positions, why not stop trying to win that stage, and put time and energy into coaching others? Is this way off base?
Tommy
I had to quit high power a few years ago. Too many things worn out, both knees, 3 disks in back, right shoulder and arthritis in hands and a bad ticker, plus a few other things.
arcticdog
07-21-2010, 07:15
Why would you want to deny someone, because of their age, or silght infirmity that they love doing?
I agree +1! In general, I don't like preferences. I think 'riflemen' should be able as well as capable. For those who need to push the dinner plate away sooner and walk an extra block, this rant is for you. I like a "Rattle Battle" to show people can still advance all 4 stages and shoot. Here, better physical condition is a necessity.
But - exceptions need to be made. For example, at my rifle club, there are several veterans with service-related injuries who need an adjustment in position - prone, sitting, or other accomodation - to shoot an M1 Garand or milsurp bolt action. They've more than earned that IMHO. Ok, how about a group of youngsters at the range who normally are gamers and out-of-shape? We certainly don't want to turn away our future shooters and Second Amendment supporters with real rigorous physical standards to just go to the line. When these young shooters seen able-bodied shooters doing well, it gives them something to aspire to. Coupled with positive motivation, they can get there, too.
Since we shoot for fun and not a professionals - no one I know pays to see a match, they pay to shoot in one - then we ought to get as many shooters involved as we can.
arcticdog
07-21-2010, 07:28
I'm not really "anyone" in this world but I'll share a thought that's been rolling around in my noggin, that may touch on this subject, a little.
If someone is getting too 'seasoned' to make all the positions, why not stop trying to win that stage, and put time and energy into coaching others? Is this way off base?
Tommy
Most of us fgure out when the sport's demands are too rigorous to be a much of a competitor and then we hang it up, at least on that stage!
Echoing the above sentiment, if you have the patience to spend time with others and impart your knowledge to better the inexperienced shooter, that is as great an achievement as any in competition. I can say that because very capable shooters, who have won matches at the state level, get as much or even more pleasure from taking beginner shooters to the level where they compete and do well in national competitions, from air rifle to M1 Garand. They will be remembered for that more than metals won.
Griff Murphey
08-01-2010, 01:28
Generally speaking, I support allowing any shooter who can fire safely to continue to shoot as long as possible. At the Texas Garand Championship there is a WW2 Vet. ex-Major who shoots from a benchrest. I think they count his score just like anyone else's but I don't think he is near the top. One sport I am involved with involves some "run and gun" events and we had one shooter who was going down with some idiopathic neuropathy and everyone really pitched in to allow him to shoot a couple of matches more than maybe he should have. As far as "the drop" my sitting one is not pretty any more... I feel I am still safe, though, and I am sorry that NRA has dropped "the drop." I would say it should have been optional, or by waiver.
I do walk every other day; If I were to give up shooting I might not be motivated to try to be able to "hack it" and do what exercise I do in fact do. I would leave some of the younger guys with the comment that when you are older and dealing with some of the losses in skill and ability, you may be able to appreciate how much marksmanship will still mean to you even though you may not have the ability you had at age 25, 35, or 45.
The NRA for as long as I can recall allowed medical waivers for those unable to assume the prone or sitting position from a standing start. Not long ago, they started allowing Seniors to remain seated while others did the standard "standing to sitting". Shortly after that, there was some discussion about the safety of assuming a sitting or prone position from a standing start. Muzzle's were said to be unsafe during the maneuver. Around the same time, a prominent many timed champion had a double knee replacement and was granted a medical waiver allowing him to remain seated. Next thing we knew, NRA changed the rule so that you not only didn't have to rise to a standing position before assuming your sitting or prone, but were prohibited from doing so. You can speculate for yourselves as to the reasons for the change.
CMP has held the line and shooters still stand to my knowledge.
BTW, my AR is pretty well shy of 15 lbs. But my M1A is probably closer to that weight.
The rule change to remain in position for the rapids is not going to go away. Some may not like it, some probably do. Personally I always liked the idea of getting into position, but it just isn't going to happen in an NRA event anymore.
My thought are that the rule change applies to everyone on the line. It allows the older, less nimble of us to begin our string in position which may be a little easier for us to do. On the other hand it allows the younger more nimble to begin their string in position also. Who is being mistreated by this ruling? If it helps the older shooter, it damn well should help the younger shooter too. Who is going to benefit the most? I don't know.
Some of us just don't like the old and fast rules that we are used to and have shot under for years to change. Maybe we are afraid of change. I know that my rapid sitting scores have not improved significantly just because I can begin my string sitting already. They should have but they have not. Hummmmm, food for thought here.
Wow.. Maybe I should go back to playing ice hockey and demand that the goalie move out of the net when I have the puck or demand that the younger, faster guys not be allowed to check me into the boards. Fact is I got too slow and had to give it up... so I took on HP as my new sport. At 40 Y/O, after beating on my body for 25 or so years, I can understand the guys who have trouble getting into position. I have to believe that there is room for everyone in this sport, but not everyone will fit into every event. Keep your rifles and find the right event for you..
Well, after reading this thread and rolling it around in the ol noggin for awhile, here's an unsolicited opinion.
First of all, this is not combat, has nothing to do with combat, no matter what you've heard. This is a GAME. Most people do not live and die here.
2) What in the heck does standing to sitting and prone have to do with anything. Why have a prep period to build a good position, then break position to stand, then get back into some close to position that was built prior? That's just dumb.
3) To take some of the opinions stated here to the logical conclusion, they (NRA) should outlaw match bbls, match sights, match triggers, match ammo, etc. You shoot stock as-issued guns and issue fmj ammo. No more 80 grainers at 600 yds boys and girls. No more shooting jackets, no more stock weights, etc.
4) God forbid someone should have some sort of accident and become temporarily or permanently disabled. I know from experience, that all it takes is a broken ankle, to not be able to go into position from standing, ever again. Are you going to tell me that because of that, you don't want me to compete with you anymore. Am I to be bannished to long range prone from now on?
5) Give me awhile and I'll think of some more rants.
John Kepler
12-12-2010, 03:33
Gee....when my knee blew out I had to quit playing football and lost my scholarship...no one even hinted at changing the rules of the game so I could keep playing! If you can't do it, you can't do it, and try to accept that with some grace. If you don't fit the rules....tough!
Gee....when my knee blew out I had to quit playing football and lost my scholarship...no one even hinted at changing the rules of the game so I could keep playing! If you can't do it, you can't do it, and try to accept that with some grace. If you don't fit the rules....tough!
So you would let the sport die a slow death rather than adapt and adjust where necessary?
And can you honestly tell us that if a wounded and handicapped soldier, who wanted to start NRA Highpower, you would tell him/her "TOUGH"?
I'd like to be there when you got your ass kicked by that soldier. Or his friends.
Anyway, the sport belongs to the NRA. They make the rules, and if you don't like them, (to quote you), TOUGH.
John Kepler
12-13-2010, 03:39
The sport has always accomodated physical limitations with individual waivers within the confines of the existing rules. The physical limitations of your hypothetical "injured vet" being more than enough handicap to keep the playing field level. No one EVER kept such an indivdual out....quite the opposite. So....nothing was broke until the NRA insisted on "fixing" it!
As for the NRA and it's rules. Thankfully, as a Service Rifle shooter, I have an alternative...I can shoot CMP Matches where the rules still honor the sport. I'm voting on the rule changes with my money and my level of participation in NRA events.
PhillipM
12-13-2010, 05:42
I read that F-class came about from some senior shooters who were no longer competitive as a fun way to still compete. Perhaps something similar could be tried here.
John Kepler
12-13-2010, 06:08
F-Class is already there! There are all kinds of " belly" matches. Hell.....there's Benchrest! There are PLENTY of venues for those that can't physically hack XC shooting any more. Why screw up that specific venue for those that can to accomodate those that can't? Don't make sense, and I will continue to vote on the stupidity of the current rules with my feet!
On this one, I gotta agree with John.
I was not born with 20-20 vision, I have to wear corrective lenses. They didn't enlarge the targets for me to help my vision. Rather than whin and ask for special accommodations, I just worked harder and set the range record at Okinawa in 1973.
Some people will work to overcome hurdles. Some people can work hard but never be able to overcome hurdles with their life altered handicaps. Some people will never work to overcome anything, they'll demand accommodations for their lazy ways.
The NRA needs to help some, but not bend over backwards for all.
Everything started going downhill when they took away our M-1s and they gave us those wussy M-14s.
And they've labelled you a Junior Member?!? %^) H.
And they've labelled you a Junior Member?!? %^) H.
:) It really started with the M1903 being replaced with that dang new fangled M1 thingy:icon_jokercolor::icon_jokercolor:
Col. Colt
09-06-2011, 11:46
What bugs me about the Mouseguns being the "top dog" is that the could not do it if they had to load magazine fed length rounds for 600 yards. Single Loading went out with the Trapdoor Springfield. gents - until we just had to use the M16 in competition. So we gave it a Mulligan with bogus, fabricated totally NOT SERVICE RIFLE ammo, so it could compete against the .30 cals. Let's try it with all magazine length combat ammo, folks - and see how the M16 does at range.
Then we found out it didn't have enough range and penetration in the Middle East and so now we have "Dedicated Marksmen" in every Platoon, carrying an M14 - to make up for the Mousegun's deficencies. The WWII Infantry Platoon with it's Mix of weapons beats McNamara's "one gun does it all" idea all hollow. And we just rediscovered that. CC
Maury Krupp
09-07-2011, 07:03
Actually the issued mag length 77gr Mk262Mod1 does fairly well at 600yd. Not as well as an extra-long 80gr in a switchy wind but well enough if you can keep up. It's what nearly all the teams use for Infantry Trophy.
As for the old "When .30cal hits them they stay hit" vs "One 5.56 hit is better than two .30cal misses" and all variations of the same, that's a tune that's kept the merry-go-round running for almost a half-century :eusa_wall:
Like it or not, the Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, in all it's iterations is the current Service Cartridge for the vast majority of riflemen in the military. That we dinosaurs get to play with .30cal just proves that Service Rifle competition is a game and not combat (or even quasi-combat :rolleyes:)
Maury
I am glad to see most of the other folks at my club have decided, like me, to start from standing for Sitting and Rapid Fire Prone for the 200 yard matches.
They groused a little when I showed up for the C&R bolt match with my AR, and DQ me when I had the high score. Did not matter to me. I will gladly pay $5 for someone to pull my target for SR practice!
dcat
Griff Murphey
09-07-2011, 05:22
Why don't you show up at a muzzle loading match with a Remington 700 with a scope? Of course the C&R bolt gunners DQ'd you. You act like they should have counted your score...
I think this entire thread has the stink of juvenile selfishness, frankly. You guys should respect the older shooters. Most of you act like they are an inconvenience to you and you want them gone. I remember watching some guys in their late 80's trying to shoot 600 yards one time in a registered match and being miffed at their slow shooting. Then I was reminded how old they were. I guess my generation was all wet. We were raised to respect seniors.
John Kepler
09-08-2011, 03:23
I respect my elders, and I respect the sport as well. I will not sanction destroying one in a misguided attempt to "respect" the other. Besides Griff.....I've reached that point in life where I too qualify as "old", and resent the NRA destroying a sport I love and using me as the excuse. If you can't run with the Big Dawgs, stay on the porch!
Griff Murphey
09-08-2011, 04:25
The eloquent phrase, oft used by the Brits: "...so beneath contempt that it is not worthy of a reply..." comes to mind.
Just so you understand, I paid my $5 and kept my mouth shut. I knew the match director was going to unload on me a little. I have known him for years and he would have found a reason to gig me anyway. I am the perpetual "newbie" at the match and take the ribbing because I can. When I am on the line, I have a job to do and banter is not going to keep me from it.
Three of my friends shot 22s (513-T, M44US and ??) and one of them won the match. Does not matter to me that these rifles are not real C&R (by our match rules they need to be issued military bolt action rifles in original centerfire caliber with original sights). What matters is we all had fun and I got some practice in.
I do not know how "Did not matter to me. I will gladly pay $5 for someone to pull my target for SR practice!" got interpreted as disrespect.
Jim in Salt Lake
09-08-2011, 09:45
I'm going to hit 58 in a couple of months, does that make me "elder?" Doesn't feel that way but focusing at 600 yards is iffy. At times, I'm jealous of my older friends who can see now that they've had cataract surgery. I shot in a leg match last Saturday, my first in probably 20 years as a favor to a friend who needs 2 points to leg out. Unfortunately, he had three saved rounds at 300 yards. That allowed me to win and get my first six leg points. Now I'm thinking, gee, if I can hit enough leg matches, could I actually leg out by the time I turn 60? On good days, with the light right (like last Saturday), I can perform and stay in the game. On the days when I can't, them's the breaks, and aiming turns to guessing. And I absolutely miss the standing to prone/sitting in the NRA matches. I don't know what the fix(es) are to increase participation in NRA highpower but something needs to happen. At Camp Perry, there were ~450 attending NRA week and ~1500 at CMP week.
fredtheobviouspseudonym
09-10-2011, 05:03
. . . an old Marine telling me about back in his day the old timers carried on about losing their 1903s and having to carry the ugly a$$ gas operated mess called the M1.IIRC Hatcher's Notebook had a comment on how the old pros, confronted with the new issue rifle, snorted that that short-barreled aberration could never replace a real man's rifle like the Krag!
Plain Old Dave
09-10-2011, 07:37
Actually, I would rather shoot a Krag than an M1903 XTC. The M1901 sight is an M1905 without the thumbwheel to adjust for windage, and the Ray-Vin micrometer works just as well for precise elevation. (of course, the truly sporting Krag shooter will scrounge up an H. M. Pope Krag Skirmish Sight Adjuster) The longer, heavier barrel hangs better offhand and the muzzle blast and recoil are nowhere nearly as brutal with a Krag. Rapid Krag reloading is an artform; position your second 5 like they would lay in a charger/stripper, scoop 'em up and drop 'em in the gate. With practice you can do it as fast as reload an 1903 on the line. Townsend Whelen actually preferred Krags til well after WW1. I have occasionally thought of taking 100 pieces of once-fired Krag brass, my trusty Lee Loader, Krag, 1000 Large Rifle primers, a 5 pound can of IMR 4895 and a pile of 150gr RN bullets to NRA week just to be ornery.
PhillipM
09-18-2011, 07:50
How do the 150 round noses do at 600 yards?
Col. Colt
09-20-2011, 03:25
Just saying, if it's Service Rifle, the rounds should all have to fit in the magazine - if not, you're bogus. (I'm not too keen on fifteen pound service rifles of any kind, by the way.) If that creates a disadvantge on the range, it should - that's reality - the real ballistic limitations of the 5.56MM. Which, again, is why we need M14s in every squad to take care of what the mousegun cannot. CC
PS - Since when was Service Rifle Marksmanship Competition "just a game"? To who? When you have to put the sights on a human being, it works, just like on the range - if your practice was at all realistic. Alvin York shot for beef (just sport?) - and killed a lot of Germans, too. CC
John Kepler
09-27-2011, 02:58
Just saying, if it's Service Rifle, the rounds should all have to fit in the magazine
Why? It's NOTHING new! My 600-1000 yd .308 loads for my M14 weren't loaded to mag length.....a trick I learned from the Marines back in the "Dark Ages"! There were long-standing "unconfirmed" rumors that the military teams routinely "altered" the ammo they were issued by the DCM at matches by "breaking" the tar seal in the neck with a Lee Loader and "adjusting" the the OACL for the Long Lines. And THAT was something that my Grandpa said was done to the issued ammo if you got the opportunity BEFORE WWII! So just where is this "ideal" shooting environment you seem to have your boxers in such a bunch over......it hasn't existed in Service Rifle in my lifetime or yours! So yet again, the "Flat-Earthers" are heard from!
PS-There is a formerly 15 year-old Syrian kid "enjoying" his 72 Virgins because my son the E-5, a Junior HP Competition shooter with his 15 lb rifle and non-mag length ammo put one in the Hadji's 10-Ring as he was drawing down on a Humvee with an RPG from 370 yds (I sent James to the Sandbox with a Jewell trigger and a couple boxes of handloaded 75 gr match ammo). It's the man, not the ax that fells the tree!
John Sukey
10-17-2011, 09:49
Would that we had a time machine to make us all 18 yr olds again:D
I get the impression that some people want us to hang our rifles on the wall just because we can no longer bend in the right places.
John Kepler
10-17-2011, 10:34
There are plenty of other venues to shoot in that don't require "bending in the right places". Why dismantle a sporting venue to accommodate those that should be moving on? I'm close to not being able to do it any more, and could have had a "medical" 10 years ago! I will NOT take one, and will either "move on" or "hang my rifles on the wall"! If you can't run with the Big Dawgs.....just stay on the porch.......don't hobble them to make you feel better! "Quis in Tartaro communis esse vult?"
Griff Murphey
10-17-2011, 07:57
I may come up to Perry after all, just to hold up the match scroofing around the firing line, just to aggravate you, Kepler. I may ask to get squadded close enough to you to fire on your target.
John Kepler
10-18-2011, 04:04
The way things are going Griff....you and I can probably see who can "scroof" things up worse!
I take my lead from my Dad. Pop lived for shooting HP and we shot together for many happy years. But I remember the day when he just couldn't get into sitting, dumped the clip out of his trusty old Garand and walked off the line for good. He coached, he volunteered, he shot some Long Range...but he never shot XC again...and never looked back. Dad died in August, just before his 85th birthday (and right after his Grandson and I shot the Nationals)...and our last lucid discussion involved how glad he was that he didn't try to "over-stay" his time in HP. He lived long enough to get thoroughly PO'ed at the NRA for "b!tching up" Service Rifle, and let them know about it in no uncertain terms.
And Griff....nothing would please me more than shooting with you while I still can....but we'll do it "old school" or not at all. You can crossfire all the 10's on my target you want!
fredtheobviouspseudonym
01-12-2012, 11:06
Yeah! My Grandpa was one of them!As I remember Hatcher had a story about that -- the old time National Match shooters were irate when the Army issued that newer, lighter service rifle with the short barrel and the new cartridge. No way that new piece of [deleted] would ever replace the good ol' Krag.
EDIT: Sorry -- forgot I posted in October.
The National Match Course and the police Practical Pistol Course started out as an attempt to simulate combat conditions to better prepare soldiers and law enforcement respectively for actual situations. Both of these courses of fire were innovative for their time. but have evolved into the use of firearms and equipment that would rarely if ever be used in tactical situations. I.e. the firearms are modified and "tuned" to improve accuracy. Other modifications and equipment "allowed" would not likely be used in tactical situations. Accomodations for people that would never be allowed in a tacitical situation is hardly surprising. I thought the NMC started going down hill when they went to digital targets, and was seriously damaged when we were allowed to place the magazine or clip of ammunition on the ground rather than in a cartridge belt or load bearing magazine pouch. Then came the requirement for those big bright chamber clear devices! (What the heck is wrong with shooting your buddy's toe off?)
Other combat simulation courses have been devised by the military and law enforcement that more closely simulate tactical situations and the previoulsy mentioned courses of fire as modified are no longer serve any purpose in the military or law enforcement.
As an exercise in the traditional purpose of the NMC I fired the course with an unmodified M1903 without any special equipment except an O'Hare micrometer, spotting scope, eye protection, and shooting glove. Oh, and a mat - didn't want to damage my original WWI uniform. Still not sure if I "qualified" as I wasn't sure how to convert the "X" target score to the "V" target score...must have been expert though.
PhillipM
01-25-2012, 12:22
The National Match Course and the police Practical Pistol Course started out as an attempt to simulate combat conditions to better prepare soldiers and law enforcement respectively for actual situations. Both of these courses of fire were innovative for their time. but have evolved into the use of firearms and equipment that would rarely if ever be used in tactical situations. I.e. the firearms are modified and "tuned" to improve accuracy. Other modifications and equipment "allowed" would not likely be used in tactical situations. Accomodations for people that would never be allowed in a tacitical situation is hardly surprising. I thought the NMC started going down hill when they went to digital targets, and was seriously damaged when we were allowed to place the magazine or clip of ammunition on the ground rather than in a cartridge belt or load bearing magazine pouch. Then came the requirement for those big bright chamber clear devices! (What the heck is wrong with shooting your buddy's toe off?)
Other combat simulation courses have been devised by the military and law enforcement that more closely simulate tactical situations and the previoulsy mentioned courses of fire as modified are no longer serve any purpose in the military or law enforcement.
As an exercise in the traditional purpose of the NMC I fired the course with an unmodified M1903 without any special equipment except an O'Hare micrometer, spotting scope, eye protection, and shooting glove. Oh, and a mat - didn't want to damage my original WWI uniform. Still not sure if I "qualified" as I wasn't sure how to convert the "X" target score to the "V" target score...must have been expert though.
200 standing, 300 sitting, 600 prone. At 200 and 300 battle sight only and windage set to zero.
http://www.archive.org/stream/usmarinecorpssco00harlrich#page/12/mode/2up
Greg Ficklin
01-26-2012, 06:18
Known Distance rifle qualification has never been a simulation of combat, or any tactical scenario. It is the most basic, and fundamental practice of marksmanship. There is no enemy, no cover, no concealment, no squad movement. Only the basic requirement to hit the target consistently, in a controlled environment. This basic standard allows for measurement of ones ability to apply the very basic knowledge of marksmanship without artificial support. It is as relevant today as it was in 1900. It is a fundamental, and basic military requirement (at least in the USMC), in the same respect as drill, customs and courtesies, and basic knowledge testing. The NMC very closely resembles known distance rifle qual. The NMC is a game that tests your abilities to use the fundamentals as measured against others in a particular skill classification. In a military situation it is basic training. But National Match Service Rifle is a game. Known Distance rifle qual is the foundation of all advanced combat training, in the same way that basic drill teaches a group to act as one, with instant response to orders. Neither are simulations of combat, and never have been, but have a bearing on combat effectiveness as basic military requirements.
Dollar Bill
08-19-2012, 07:45
Thank you for that link and all the information you, as well as others put out here. I grew up in a family where someone in every generation served, whether it be MC, Army, or Navy, but no one was involved in the shooting sports. I started myself shooting smallbore when my father passed and in the interviening 30+ years have come to deeply rely on gentlemen like you to keep rekindling my sense of history. It's why I'm just starting to do what you guys did 30+ years ago. Although I still do not have anyone within a days drive to shoot any type of match with, I'm busy working up loads and shooting (sometimes) out to 600 yds with my 1903 and my new-to-me Garand.
Anyway, I just wanted to drop a note of Thanks to everyone here.
Best Regards,
Bill
Welcome to the sport. I hope you get to shooting soon. I think you will find the highpower crowd to be a good, bunch always ready to offer help to a new shooter. If I may offer a bit of advice related to this thread; shoot for the enjoyment and to meet your personal goals. That way every day can be a good day shooting. Winning can also bring rewards, and pursuit of that can come down the road. But for now focus on improving within yourself. Shoot what you want within the rules of the sport and the safety rules. Good luck.
Welcome to the sport. I hope you get to shooting soon. I think you will find the highpower crowd to be a good, bunch always ready to offer help to a new shooter. If I may offer a bit of advice related to this thread; shoot for the enjoyment and to meet your personal goals. That way every day can be a good day shooting. Winning can also bring rewards, and pursuit of that can come down the road. But for now focus on improving within yourself. Shoot what you want within the rules of the sport and the safety rules. Good luck.
This advice has got to be about the VERY BEST I've heard/read on the subject of competition shooting for the "newby"!
Competition shooting matches CAN be very intimidating to the "new" guy on the line . . . . .
As I said to the new, junior shooters in the club I was in . . . . .
"Nobody here on the firing line gives a hoot about YOUR score . . . . only their own!"
Concentrate on what YOU are doing . . . ignore the other doings around you!
Be safe . . . . and above all, . . . .
Have fun! --Jim
Thanks JimF,
I can only hope that the Original Poster takes it to heart as well. FWIW, Maury Krupp epitomizes that philosophy. He competes with his rifle of choice, understands the limitations, and does not try to rationalize his choices by degrading the equipment of others that remain within the rules as written. He is as knowledgeable about the rules as any and has an appreciation for the history of the sport. And most importantly, he is out there shooting in matches and not arm chair quarterbacking. We need more like him.
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