View Full Version : The P51 Mustang, the best offensive fighter of WW2 ...
When it came out the US Air Force didn't show much interest,
but the British Air Force did. They dumped the (Pratt & Whitney ?)
engine and replaced it with the RR Merlin.
Hey Presto, a fighter that could, with long range tanks, escort the
Bombers all the way. The Tuskegee Airman used it to great effect.
And it was a feast for the eyes.
They still zoom around the pylons at air shows.
jjrothWA
09-27-2022, 07:22
Read the book "Thunderbolt" by Johnson, I think it was equal.
I read where Tom Cruise paid $4M for his Mustang.
I built a model P-51. You could raise and lower the landing gear with a little knob. Loved that plane. We had a famous one at Falcon Field that flew around. We were out at the Salt river once and it came ripping past us. Just like SPR. OK, maybe not that dramatic but a real thrill. I don't remember the name. We had one crash at another local a/p, I hope it wasn't that one. I could look all this up, but you get the idea; I think it was an extremely cool plane.
'Oh, Tom Cruise wants to buy our plane'? (salesman cracking knuckles). I recall there was a time when they were semi-plentiful.
Another star who owns planes; Michael Dorn (Worf of Star Trek)
A member of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association,[13] Dorn is an accomplished pilot. He has flown with the Blue Angels as well as the Thunderbirds.[3] He has owned several jet aircraft, including a Lockheed T-33 Shooting Star, which he jokingly refers to as his "starship",[14] a North American F-86 Sabre, and currently owns a North American Sabreliner. Dorn also serves on several aviation organizations, one of which is the Air Force Aviation Heritage Foundation,[15] where he is on the advisory board.
His contract prevented him from flying any of his toys.
One more. Harrison Ford (star wars and lots more) tried to land on the taxiway. He got the, 'call this number' from the tower. That's not good.
They were all wonderful planes. The P-51 was one of many great planes. In the ETO do consider the P-47 superior simply b/c it was not only better armed, it was more capable of dealing with multiples roles. The P-51 was simply more vulnerable to minor hits to cooling system, etc. Of course the Corsair ruled the air in the PTO. Sincerely. bruce.
Vern Humphrey
09-28-2022, 10:37
Read the book "Thunderbolt" by Johnson, I think it was equal.
I had a friend, Gus Gutshall who was a pilot in the 25th Fighter Squadron, the Assam Dragons, in the CBI theater in WWII. (Due to the terrain, the pilots would usually "drag in" on their passes. It was there that the 25th picked up the name Assam Draggins.)
Gus had two caterpillars -- once shot down by Japanese groundfire, and once had his wingman clip his tail off. He stayed with the Army when the Air Force split off and served in Airborne units. He had GOLD Master Parachutist wings (more than 100 military jumps) and US Parachute Association Class D license (more than 200 free fall jumps.)
He said he much preferred the Thunderbolt and didn't like the P51 at all. "You put the nose down on that thing and you're gone!"
blackhawknj
09-28-2022, 11:09
IIRC the P-51's strength was it had the range and maneuverability to escort the bombers all the way and back, hence it was the best DEFENSIVE fighter.
When it came out the US Air Force didn't show much interest,
but the British Air Force did. They dumped the (Pratt & Whitney?)
The Mustang came out with an Allison.
F. Guffey
The Me109 had a bigger engine, the difference? We had Ethel in our gas tanks and the Germans used a synthetic fuel. There were times we were running 140 octanes; the Germans were lucky to be running 95 octanes.
F. Guffey
IIRC the P-51's strength was it had the range and maneuverability to escort the bombers all the way and back, hence it was the best DEFENSIVE fighter.
The defeat of the Luftwaffe was achieved by using the bombers as sort of a decoy. Don't get me wrong, the bombing was still important but we conducted bomber operations in such a way the Luftwaffe had a "heads up." In this way we forced them to come up and fight. When we did the Mustangs, or Indians as the NAZI pilots called them shot them down in large numbers; especially those fighters (mostly FW190s) that had been modified as bomber destroyers. By the Normandy invasion the Germans had lost so many planes, and more importantly so many experienced pilots that they were non competitive and we had air superiority over Europe. By the end of the year we had air supremacy.
F.guffey:
One of the problems with the 109 G model which we faced in the greatest numbers, was it had become "lumpy." As bigger engines and heavier armament was added the plane became less and less "clean." In early 1944 the G-10 version came out which was much cleaner aerodynamically and came within 10 mph of the top speed of a Mustang, by that time though it turned out to be too little and way too late.
Re: Defeat. By early 1944, the Luftwaffe was a shell of its former self. Shortage of fuel greatly hampered operations. Most of the pilots in the air were inexperienced, barely beyond novices. It was no different than early in the war when the Luftwaffe pilots had lots of experience and excellent planes facing less competent pilots with poorer quality aircraft. Sincerely. bruce.
Germans came out with MW50 for the DB605, and could run nitrous oxide in some FWs. The P-51 was fast because of a low drag design and the 2-stage, 2-speed supercharger improved performance across a wide altitude range.
The top technologies of the Luftwaffe were as good as anything the allies put in the air (Jumo 004 engine for example) but they didn't have the industrial base to prevail on any front and got worn down on all sides.
If you wanted to send a photo home do it in front of the Mustang. If you wanted to survive the war fly the Jug.
One of the problems with the 109 G
They installed the engine upside down; the crank was on top, and the heads were on the bottom. They had all kind of problems with preventing engine knock. I was not interested in 'who had the biggest engine', The Merlin had just over 2500 cubic inches, the ME 109 engine had just over 3500 cubic engines. The British produced all the fuel they needed, there were times the Germans could not carry on in the war for the lack of fuel. The Russians got the Studebaker trucks, the Germans were still using horses.
I read somewhere Messersmith was told to build a better fighter that could outperform the old British fighter that was flown by an exile squadron pilot. Willie responded with; if I built a plane as you describe it would look like a barn door, and then one day they were attacked. Willie asked about the plane we were using, his chief engineer responded with "Willie, it looks like they are using your barn door".
F. Guffey
The inverted V12 improved sight lines from the cockpit over the cowling and facilitated a cannon firing through the propellor hub, which was a feature the RLM valued. Possible that German use of FI neutralized an fuel delivery issues associated with engine orientation, unlike the carbureted allied engines. All in all a horse apiece, with the inverted V12 needing oil scavenging in two heads instead of one crankcase.
Detonation issues or lack of them was not related to engine orientation. But the DB had the bigger displacement in order to make up for running at a lower compression ratio.
All in all a horse apiece, with the inverted V12 needing oil scavenging in two heads instead of one crankcase.
With the small amount of information available at the time I was reminded of the Springfield Junket looking for a rifle and then came home with the Crag. The Germans pretended to be looking for a sea plane to build and race. The Germans thought the British racer had the engine mounted upside down. I had no idea the Germans had a taken a CYA course.
The Mustang was fuel injected, the spitfire had a delay, it appeared to put out a puff of smoke before everything caught up. Little known, the Spitfire made daily trips from England to Berlin and back.
F. Guffey
Another interesting aspect of all of those WW2 aircraft engines is that they drove constant speed propellers that automatically adjusted pitch to hold RPM at a setpoint. By very early in the war all modern fighters had them.
From a throttle perspective, with displacement fixed, and now RPM and mixture ratio more or less held constant, the way to adjust engine power was with manifold pressure--the mass of air (+fuel) that moves through the engine. This is why power setting is described in terms of manifold pressure in those old training vids that people post to YouTube. Not how us car guys are used to thinking.
Detonation issues or lack of them was not related to engine orientation. But the DB had the bigger displacement in order to make up for running at a lower compression ratio.
Not how us car guys are used to thinking
I do not know about 'you car guys' but if I built a low compression engine and I wanted it to perform I would be trying to pack air into it. And then there is the heat created by compression meaning I would have to figure a way to cool the air before the fuel is mixed. For a long time, I refused to believe we could raise the pressure by as much as 4 atmospheres. The Germans had equipment and planes available with no fuel, that was no way to run a war.
The British outside of the military burned coal and the used the incomplete combustion of the fuel to run cars and truck. The devise looked like large square backpacks, the British did not start the war, but they started with enough fuel to finish it.
I built an engine that was very sensitive, after it was put under a load the engine was very quiet (meaning the parts got hot and fit), the only sound that could be heard was the air research turbo turning; sensitive? The difference between running for 24 hours and Gaulding the pistons to the cylinders was 50 degrees. The spheroid condition clamed many engines for the lack of pressure.
F. Guffey
At the end of the day, power goes with mass flow of fuel + air through the motor.
Primary factors governing mass flow include
Displacement
RPM
Pressure
Temperature
Germans were indeed slow to adopt intercooling, which increases gas density at the intake manifold.
jjrothWA
09-29-2022, 01:49
Basically, the THUNDERBOLT was built around the turbocharger first then the rest of the airframe.
That how it got the 11 ton weight.
The the propeller designer , did their work and came up onthe four blade propeller with WIDE blades, [18 inch wide]
Republic really did a great job designing and producing the Thunderbolt. It had a powerful double rugged engine that could and did keep running with cylinders blown off. It was armed with eight .50 caliber machine guns were capable of unzipping anything flying and most anything crawling along roads, etc. It was supremely well armored making it more than a match for whatever Axis plane might want to go round and round. Sincerely. bruce.
A flying Tank in other words.
barretcreek
10-03-2022, 12:51
Read the book "Thunderbolt" by Johnson, I think it was equal.
Great book. I think he made the point it was more survivable.
"It was more survivable." Yep! Survival has a lot going for it! Sincerely. bruce.
A friend/neighbor was a P47 Piolet, he became a Braniff piolet; he worked his way up to the 707, other piolets wanted to stay with the Super G Constellation. They claimed the Super G would get off the runway as fast as the 707. It was about that time an argument started and money exchanged hands and then someone had to step up and take off. There was no room to stand inside the Love passenger building because of the interest. The pilot backed up, released the brakes and took off, it was a most impressive take off, he won the bet and got suspended. He told me about a P47 that was being ferried when it almost lost a xxxx he said they wrapped one bank of cylinders with a chain and binder, seemed it was the pilot's choice, it was the end of the planes military career or fly it to a military base to be repaired.
And then Braniff shut down and the piolets found work anywhere they could. My friend went to the middle east, he had trouble getting along with them and then he got a job teaching John Travolta to fly, I was happy for both of them. He found a Lincon, early 60 4 door convertible, he wanted it rebuilt and I said "great, I will be able to use my 19/32 1/2" drive socket". He purchased a small ranch east of Bowie, Tx, he named it "The flying Lowe Ranch" his name was J. Lowe.
There was a man named Kerby that was assigned a P47, the problem was he was not given an opportunity to get close to combat so he rustled up some drop tanks to give him range. And another problem, he was in the Pacific. In short order he became an outstanding pilot. He said his success was based on the speed of the P47. He said he did not engage a Japanese plane unless he was diving on it and passing it at the same time.
F. Guffey
barretcreek
10-03-2022, 03:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnX_mQ9apu8
Cavalry charging in.
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/george-preddy-jr-the-usaafs-greatest-p51-ace/
F. Guffey
blackhawknj
10-07-2022, 08:49
IIRC even with a drop tank the Thunderbolt lacked the range to accompany the bombers into Germany and back.
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