View Full Version : Great news from CMP!
They have just released their rules on the 1911's if and when they get them. The great news is there will be a limit of 1 per year per customer. No longer will big gun deaalers be able to order dozens of guns for resale while the intended purpose of CMP was left begging on the street.
A regular Joe may have a shot at getting one.
Major Tom
12-13-2017, 05:01
I hope they are not beat up junk at high prices. I have an ATI 45 government that I paid $450 and it accepts all M1911 accessories.
Good news indeed. Never did agree with the idea of anyone being able to buy umpteen rifles and cases upon cases of ammunition ... all supposedly in the name of marksmanship but then turning right around and selling at a profit those rifles and that ammunition. JMHO. bruce.
JB White
12-13-2017, 08:41
Good news indeed. Never did agree with the idea of anyone being able to buy umpteen rifles and cases upon cases of ammunition ... all supposedly in the name of marksmanship but then turning right around and selling at a profit those rifles and that ammunition. JMHO. bruce.
I agree, Bruce. Yeah, yeah, yeah...I hear all the time about the RIGHT to buy however many we wish. That's all fine and dandy until they begin blatently depriving everyone else of their right to have just one.
I hope they are not beat up junk at high prices. I have an ATI 45 government that I paid $450 and it accepts all M1911 accessories.
Even if they are beat up junk they are a piece of history. Given the opportunity, I will buy one and probably never shoot it.
The reason the U.S. military changed handguns in the 90's was that the 1911A1's in the inventory were worn out.
This is the newest info on 'em.
http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/1911-information/
Ya'll need to make note of this too.
"...CMP 1911 is an FFL governed operation and is a separate entity from CMP and..."
"The customer will have to send in a complete new order packet with all new qualifying criteria included."
Sandpebble
12-13-2017, 05:05
I agree, Bruce. Yeah, yeah, yeah...I hear all the time about the RIGHT to buy however many we wish. That's all fine and dandy until they begin blatently depriving everyone else of their right to have just one.
Ya know JB... this was hashed out on this site years ago . Fact is every one DOES have the right to purchase as many as the CMP will sell them as the CMP sets the limits.
The CMP is in business to accumulate as much money in as short a period of time as possible to subsidize their agenda. And that agenda was never to subsidize collectors by making sure there was a never ending supply of low priced collectables.
And the CMP is not all that concerned with your RIGHT to have just one. When I bought my first one ... from the DCM... you had to prove you were involved in rifle competition . At that time the purchase limit was just one {Garand} in your lifetime .
The free market sucks when you don't make the cut for the latest batch to come out.... right? ... but those guys who max their limit every year are just what the CMP is catering to..... and the CMP cares not one whit if those limit maxers resell them all next week .
As far as the .45s ... I'll pass
Griff Murphey
12-13-2017, 07:53
I wonder if any will be Marine Corps guns. I have my custody cards for two of them, the one I won the aggregate Rifle and Pistol 3rd MarDiv intramurals with which came out of 3D med Bn and the one I carried on the Cambodia and Vietnam Evacs which was a 1st bn 4th Marine Reg't gun. Both were good guns my opinion was the .45s I saw in the 3rd division were on the whole a lot less worn out than the XM-16E-1A-2s were. The corpsmen were busy taping the upper and lower receiver joints with adhesive tape on the range to deal with gas blowback.
I hope they will take requests by serial number. I know they did for M-1s.
I agree, Bruce. Yeah, yeah, yeah...I hear all the time about the RIGHT to buy however many we wish. That's all fine and dandy until they begin blatently depriving everyone else of their right to have just one.
AGREE! It wasn't very long after they lifted the limit on M1's that gunshows were flooded with them from profiteers.
AGREE! It wasn't very long after they lifted the limit on M1's that gunshows were flooded with them from profiteers.
Exactly. Understand the limit cramped the style of profiteers. So what. If the limit had remained in place both on rifles and ammo, the profiteers would have been fine selling sausage and coffee at the concessions area of the gun shows. It would not matter to them. After all, people who are in something for just the money, it never matters to them what they are selling. They're just after the money. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.
The whole process sounds too complicated and 'fair market value' is a subjective term. Might be "fair" to one guy but not to another. And from prices I see being asked now, they will be too expensive in my opinion. Certainly be no "correct", original collectables in the mix.
I too will pass, not worth the trouble unless priced at a few hundred and I mean "few"!
With this talk of "Fair Market" value, another thing to consider on the M1's. By releasing unlimited numbers to one person CMP surly knew thousands would end up being resold. This in turn fed a very large market of people who did not or could not buy from CMP. They also knew the prices asked would be higher then CMP"S. So they raised their prices, and the sellers went up more, to make a profit. One fed the other! And then they got into 'Grades' so they could ask higher prices. As CMP prices went up so did the private 'fair market price'. They finally sort of leveled off when CMP ran short and the market got saturated. Thus CMP actually caused prices to raise and establish a new higher 'fair market' value' for the M1's. The .45's are already starting at a hi FM Value, they do not have as many and quality of the pistols is probably not the best.
Exactly. Understand the limit cramped the style of profiteers. So what. If the limit had remained in place both on rifles and ammo, the profiteers would have been fine selling sausage and coffee at the concessions area of the gun shows. It would not matter to them. After all, people who are in something for just the money, it never matters to them what they are selling. They're just after the money. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.
How much sausage and coffee would you have purchased? So much that prices go up and I could not afford it? Your statement has nothing to do with anything!
JB White
12-15-2017, 01:42
How much sausage and coffee would you have purchased? So much that prices go up and I could not afford it? Your statement has nothing to do with anything!
Bad analogy there. Sausage and coffee are always available. If not from one source, hundreds, even thousands of others. Nobody would go without for more than a day, and the prices wouldn't be inflated.
Thus CMP actually caused prices to raise and establish a new higher 'fair market' value' for the M1's.
And exactly how did this improve civilian marksmanship? The entire intent of the program was to make riles affordable to civilians. The scam artists and thieves bastardized the program and ruined it. It was never meant to subsidize gun dealers and wound up doing the exact opposite of the intent of Congress when they passed the law. Young shooters that were supposed to be the benefiters, were priced out of the market by privateers and the head of the program... retired as a millionaire.
Another completely failed Government program.
The same thing happens every time the CMP releases a new variety of firearm, they're garbage, they're going to cost too much, heck, why isn't the CMP just giving them away. I guess it was better when the DCM was running things and you got one gun a life time and had to prove that you were a competition shooter to qualify and after doing so there was no guarantee of quality and you needed to check an actuarial table to be sure you'd be alive when it was delivered.
The CMP is a 501(c)(3) non profit that is supposed to promote civilian marksmanship through training programs and running matches. An admirable goal. The main source of money to achieve this is through the sale of surplus firearms donated to them through the government. After the surplus firearms are expended there will be no more of that income so that money has to be managed well.
Sooo here are my thoughts from my own observations of the CMP over 15 years of dealing with them:
"Fair market price:" For the life of me I don't see how anyone could say the CMP has caused the fair market value of M1 rifles, or anything they sold for that matter, to rise. Before the CMP finding a shooter M1 could be a challenge and the weren't cheap. $400.00 for a solid shooter M1 when I bought mine was a steal. Less than $800.00 for the same rifle today is also a steal; if you can get one. Unless I shop till I drop looking for someone who has a financial emergency and has to sell or doesn't know what he has I can't get a good M1 in Houston for less than $900.00 and $1,100 to $1,200.00 is more common. Cost rise is due largely to normal inflation and the fact that the supply has once again dried up. The CMP always sells firearms for less, usually much less than a comparable firearm can be bought from a civilian vendor. My Inland M1 Carbine, for example, cost me $400.00 at a time when a comparable good shooter M1 Carbine was going for from about $250.00 more if you got a great deal to maybe $400.00 more if you didn't. Today if you want to find a good shooter decent looking M1 Carbine be prepared to drop a grand, at least where I live if you're dealing with anyone who has the vaguest idea of what he's got. I will repeat something I've said over and over - there are two "fair" prices - buyer's price and seller's price. The real fair price is what a normal person who would purchase an item is willing to pay.
Condition: Speaking of the carbines. Before they were released the firearms know-it-alls were talking about what absolute garbage they were going to be, especially the crap after market stocks. Again that turned out not to be the case. My carbine has a USGI birch "pot belly" stock it got in a rebuild in the US. This is true of almost every one of the carbines I saw. Though refinished many times (the only sign of a cartouche is the very faint "proof P" on the front of the pistol grip) it's good sound wood. The barrel gauges "2" at the muzzle and its a straight shooter. I can say the same for every other CMP firearm I've bought.
On the M1911's specifically. I have a friend who was all excited and thought he was going to be able to pick up a USGI M1911 for a couple of hundred dollars.....NOT!!!. I told him my guess was $600.00-$750.00 for a service grade by a common manufacturer. He said "that isn't a good deal!" Well, with unmodified USGI M1911s in good shooting condition going for about $1,000.00 at the bottom I think its quite a good deal indeed. If my mission was to have a really good shooter for a good price I'd buy an Armscor or Springfield Armory Inc. (I've shot some of these and they outshoot any stock USGI .45 I've ever shot by a good margin.)
The extra hoops are, according to the CMP purely the work of the Department of the Army who will supply the pistols and the BATFE. Nothing can be done about that.
I don't know if I'm going to buy one just because I look on these guns as minimally functional compared to their modern equivalents for any purpose and I don't know if I'll buy one or not. I never thought I'd buy an M1 Carbine either but I did and I don't regret it, especially since it's become my wife's "house gun."
If you want one as a piece of history that you might want to expend a few rounds at tin cans though...they will almost surely be a good buy.
Great post, Art.
Red: CMP sells stuff to raise money for youth shooting. Training on air rifles and .22LR and 5.56mm is appropriate, and Garands are not needed for that mission except as a source of revenue. How the CMP does that is up to them. If they sell a good product and demand is such that market price goes up and some get priced out, well that's life. I came along too late for cheap P.08s or M1 carbines.
Bad analogy there. Sausage and coffee are always available. If not from one source, hundreds, even thousands of others. Nobody would go without for more than a day, and the prices wouldn't be inflated.
Exactly, I was being sarcastic!
Great post, Art.
Red: CMP sells stuff to raise money for youth shooting. Training on air rifles and .22LR and 5.56mm is appropriate, and Garands are not needed for that mission except as a source of revenue. How the CMP does that is up to them. If they sell a good product and demand is such that market price goes up and some get priced out, well that's life. I came along too late for cheap P.08s or M1 carbines.
I belonged to a Shooting club/range for years, was an officer for some time. We had a youth shooting program, never got a darn thing from CMP, except Rem. White box .22 ammo, at the same price anyone would pay from CMP! They sold some M1 Carbines (limit three) but you had to certify they would be available for the Youth program for a period of 2-3 years. Never saw one of these carbines show up at the club, and I knew who got them. When you purchased M1's you had to sign that they were NOT for resale! CMP did nothing about it! No, they were maximizing profits so they could get high salaries. Youth shooting programs were a very small side line, if that! M1 Garands may not be needed now but back in the late '90's they dominated our Clubs matches, only a few AR types were used.
Another completely failed Government program.
Agree with you about the intent, etc. Do not agree with you about it being a failed government program. CMP chooses to operate as it operates in the sale of rifles, ammo, etc. The intent of Congress was that CMP would be a means of supporting marksmanship. The rifles/ammo, etc. were to be best used for that purpose. Any failure was not by the government but the CMP. Perhaps the rush to get rifles/ammo sold was driven by concern that a hostile legislative/executive branch would act to end CMP and restart Capt. Crunch. Anything is possible. But the sales policies, etc., were set by CMP. Those who bought maximum quantities of rifles/ammo from CMP for later resale were simply dishonest frauds. There is no other word for it. Those who calculated their purchases for resale were and remain frauds in every respect. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.
JB White
12-16-2017, 11:41
Exactly, I was being sarcastic!
Ii obviously went over my head then. :icon_redface:
I purchased all the M1s the CMP would sell me for a few years. I still have all but five. I gave my grandson and his father one M1 each and a good supply of ammo. I sold three with ammo, at my cost, to my SILs brother, for his three teenage boys. I will probably sell a few more at a very reasonable price to those people who I think will appreciate the M1 riffle. I do not, in any way, feel I abused the system by purchasing the amount of Garands the CMP allowed. My purchases were made when the CMP had an abundance of rifles and ammunition available so no one who ordered from the CMP was denied a rifle because of my purchases. The majority of the rifles I purchased were in the $300 - $400 range. I stopped buying the rifles when the price increased.
Seems to me that the CMP is damned no matter what they do. If they price low enough to incentivize resellers then they are bad. If they raise the price to squeeze resellers then they are bad for a different reason.
So some guys want the CMP to price 1911s starting at $400, with a one pistol/person/year limit, so they can sell their one at a nice profit "in a couple of years if they feel like it."
In other words the CMP should deliberately squeeze themselves on both price and volume or in the eyes of some they are bad. Like I say, whatever they do, someone will bitch.
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