View Full Version : Not being a collector
all my rifles must be shooters, not vault queens. I am not really worried about stock markings, all parts like numbered, rebuild marks or dates. It can be a mixmaster beater, not cut down or sporterized, but all parts must work together and it must be safe and reliable. So with all that said, what would be a fair purchase price for such a Model of 1917; if I can come across one?
My children and grand-children build intrinsic value into something by sharing and using it and passing it down not putting it away for possible future appreciation.
I can't speak to the gun market in Phoenix, but when I was looking for my '17 a year ago in the Pittsburgh market, I found the average price range for a decent M1917 mixmaster at dealers and gun shows was somewhere between $600 and $800 give or take. Add or subtract a couple hundred dollars for a pristine example or for one that's in less than average condition. Come prepared with your bore light, headspace field gauge and a muzzle erosion gauge to check for corrosion damage and excessive wear. All of these test/inspection items are fairly inexpensive and might help you avoid buyer's remorse since you're looking for a shooter. I agree with you that I don't want a gun that I can't shoot.
In Kansas if your patient you can find very good examples for $500.00. But the average asking price is higher. I held out and paid $500.00 for a nice matched M1917 but I waited until someone had a fire sale. If I wanted a very nice one right now I'd expect to pay $600 to $650 and $500.00 for a mix master that's in shootable condition. That being said I hear stories of guys finding them for cheaper prices but I think its being in the right place at the right time.
I can't speak to the gun market in Phoenix, but when I was looking for my '17 a year ago in the Pittsburgh market, I found the average price range for a decent M1917 mixmaster at dealers and gun shows was somewhere between $600 and $800 give or take. Add or subtract a couple hundred dollars for a pristine example or for one that's in less than average condition. Come prepared with your bore light, headspace field gauge and a muzzle erosion gauge to check for corrosion damage and excessive wear. All of these test/inspection items are fairly inexpensive and might help you avoid buyer's remorse since you're looking for a shooter. I agree with you that I don't want a gun that I can't shoot.
I might add that the above were asking prices, not selling prices. If you find one that you like and it passes your inspection, make the seller an offer.
Update: "United States Rifle Model Of 1917" by C.S. Ferris is an excellent book on the rifle and is available online. It has a lot of good information about the M1917.
Here in MI they are asking 600-800 for '17's, no matter if matched or not. I can not ever remember seeing one that was a 'beater', they tend to be in G-VG condition. They are getting 'lil scares here. I am talking gun shows, few GS in my area.
Winchester M1917s tend to be more expensive than E and R. W made fewer 17s than E and R plus the parts interchangeability issues kept the early 17s out of the war.
Dan Shapiro
01-12-2017, 02:54
Figure $800 for a "field grade" mixmaster with a decent original barrel. Beware of the VFW turn-ins. The vets fired their ceremonial volleys with corrosive blanks. After the ceremony, they retired to the local bar. Barrels are toast. The one I got from the CMP would keyhole at 25 yards! The inside of the barrel looked like the surface of the moon.
Figure $800 for a "field grade" mixmaster with a decent original barrel. Beware of the VFW turn-ins. The vets fired their ceremonial volleys with corrosive blanks. After the ceremony, they retired to the local bar. Barrels are toast. The one I got from the CMP would keyhole at 25 yards! The inside of the barrel looked like the surface of the moon.
For years, I didn't think there were m17's with decent barrels. They were at the least dark. But they are out there. I've found a few. $650 isn't bad for a great old time rifle that can be accurate. I did pay $550 for a rifle with a duffle cut stock. I glued and screwed it back toghether. I didn't shoot all that well and I got rid of it.
Figure $800 for a "field grade" mixmaster with a decent original barrel. Beware of the VFW turn-ins. The vets fired their ceremonial volleys with corrosive blanks. After the ceremony, they retired to the local bar. Barrels are toast. The one I got from the CMP would keyhole at 25 yards! The inside of the barrel looked like the surface of the moon.
I saw what appears to have been a blank fired Eddystone at a gun show a couple of years ago with a fouled bore. My bore light barely penetrated the fouling. The rifle was otherwise in pristine condition. The seller was asking $1200.
For years, I didn't think there were m17's with decent barrels. They were at the least dark. But they are out there. I've found a few. $650 isn't bad for a great old time rifle that can be accurate. I did pay $550 for a rifle with a duffle cut stock. I glued and screwed it back toghether. I didn't shoot all that well and I got rid of it.
I know the feeling. Being able to check barrel condition is the reason I'll never buy a rifle online. I have to see it in person.
The dealer I bought my early Winchester from also had several Eddystones for sale. I looked at all the barrels and the only barrel that had a good amount of rifling remaining was on the Winchester with a low serial number. It was missing two easily replaced external parts and had a replacement stock that's in nice shape. I wound up replacing all the E and R stamped parts except the E bolt and it turned out to be a great shooter.
I made an offer that was substantially less than the asking price. We met half way. He was happy and so was I. The point is, once you find a rifle that you want, make an offer. The asking price is almost always higher than what the seller is willing to accept. All they can say is no. If the price is firm, they'll tell you. Then you'll need to decide if the rifle is worth the money.
I know the feeling. Being able to check barrel condition is the reason I'll never buy a rifle online. I have to see it in person.
The dealer I bought my early Winchester from also had several Eddystones for sale. I looked at all the barrels and the only barrel that had a good amount of rifling remaining was on the Winchester with a low serial number. It was missing two easily replaced external parts and had a replacement stock that's in nice shape. I wound up replacing all the E and R stamped parts except the E bolt and it turned out to be a great shooter.
I made an offer that was substantially less than the asking price. We met half way. He was happy and so was I. The point is, once you find a rifle that you want, make an offer. The asking price is almost always higher than what the seller is willing to accept. All they can say is no. If the price is firm, they'll tell you. Then you'll need to decide if the rifle is worth the money.
Why I go to great effort to photograph rifling when I put it on the net.
I think some things should be made clear.
Firing blanks does not wipe out the whole barrel, it eats up the Throat. It may look good but the threat can and likely is gone.
You need a THROAT EROSION gauge to see that. Steve Mathews makes a very good one for a low dost that is very close calibration wise to a 1917 (not spot on, but if it falls into the barrel from the rear you know its toast)
I have a boroscope and you can see it with that as well.
Do not buy one if you are seuqemish, good barrels (button rifled ( look bad, nothing to do with their shooting.
They are good to see if you got them clean. Using Boretech Eliminator I have cleaned up a JA and an original WWI barrel. Both look good now.
Pictures do not mean anything, they can look good and the MW is bad, the TE is bad and you have a nice spiral.
RC20,
I was referring to the powder and primer residue left behind by the blanks that can damage a barrel if corrosive and not cleaned. This wouldn't have mattered so much with modern blanks, but we could be talking about stuff from the 1920s that is still in the bore. The fouled bore on the otherwise pristine $1200 M1917 Eddystone I saw at a gun show led me to believe it was used for ceremonial purposes and never cleaned. I never did check the throat condition once I saw the badly fouled barrel bore. I was more curious about why the seller thought the rifle was worth so much money. By the way, I was at the gun show on 1/15/17 and the M1917 is still there after 3 years and the asking price is still $1200.
I have a question about Throat Erosion measurement. Each rifle OEM builds in a certain amount of free bore (distance between the chamber and the spot on the barrel where the lands and grooves begin) on their rifles. I use the comparative method taught to us by JB White to measure the free bore distance on my rifles that would include TE. This method determines the distance measured between a chambered blank round and the muzzle tip and a bare bullet pushed into the leading edge of the rifling and the muzzle tip. A 1/4" dowel rod inserted into the muzzle does the measuring. Obviously, the barrels with the least amount of throat erosion will have a lower reading. My rifles measurements are as follows:
1917 Winchester M1917 = almost zero
1943 Remington 03-A3 = 1/8"
1944 Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk. 1* = 1/4"
All are excellent shooters. The only one of the three rifles that may have been in combat is the No. 4, hence the possibility of some throat erosion.
So the question is, without knowing the original free bore that the OEM sets when building the rifle, how do we determine what is worn and what is normal? Should we assume that all OEM set free bore is 1/8" or less?
I've always understood that an eroded throat increases free bore and causes lower muzzle velocity by allowing pressure to escape around the bullet while a worn muzzle will allow the bullet to wobble or keyhole and have a greater impact on accuracy. All of the above rifles look great on a muzzle gauge.
Sorry I have not been back for a bit, too many interests.
I don't have a great answer for your question, the only TE gauges I know of are made for the 1903.
I had an email discussion with Steven Mathews and he said ( and my experience indicates the same) that while its not been calibrated to that gun, its close enough to give you a good idea.
The 1917s were made to the same spec, the one I know had a lot of use shows more wear than the others.
Otherwise you can compare mil surplus ammo and then do the check to see how much free bore it has and how bad that may or may not be.
Best guess would be anything past .080 is probably worn, I may play with some HXP and see what that comes out to.
The steps on the TE gauge are .150 and go to 8. 6+ is the rejection range
My Step Dads fathers rifles still shoots and pretty good with the right loads and its up around 5.
From the plugs on it, it was used for target shooting (scope mounts per the old long scopes) . Looks to have passed on when it started to loose target accuracy but was a hunting rifle for 30 years or more.
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