Gun Snobs (long)

[BEAR]

For almost all of my adult collecting years I have always abhorred what I will call "Gun Snobs". Individuals who think their particular rifle is superior to anyone's similar rifle. They deftly drop names of experts in that particular field of weaponry and give you the impression that they and the expert are fast friends. They are skilled in belittling you, your rifle and any opinion you have contrary to theirs. After any discussion with such individuals I feel as if I must shower with Lye soap hoping I can cleanse myself of such a disgusting involvement.

Over the years I have met them in gun stores, gun shows and in online forums. The forums are the worst venue for these loathsome toads. I guess they feel that since you can't confront them face to face then they are protected in their particular brand of nastiness. I have managed to avoid most of the forums that have a plethora of these individuals, especially if the forum managers won't control them.

Fortunately I have seen very little evidence of "Gun Snobs" on this forum in the years I have been a member. Administrators and other members shut them down quickly and the slime balls move on to greener feeding grounds or richer pastures (your choice of fractured homily).

However ... the other day I did meet one of these odious slugs (long time member) right here on the Jouster's M1903 forum. Although I didn't recognize this individual's traits at first, my wife accurately pointed him out. After a few hours of reading and rereading the posts, I had to finally sadly admit she was right.

So, to paraphrase "Pogo" (who paraphrased "U.S. Navy Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry")... "I have met the enemy and he is .......me!" Yep, little ole fuzz ball me.

I found myself taking on a superior tone about the Greek return 03s and A3s. While I didn't come right out and say it I thought "why would anyone want to own one of these trashy rifles". WRONG THOUGHT PROCESS! And here's why:

1. These rifles were not specifically manufactured for the Greek military, they are American rifles and the served honorably in our services from 1903 to the end of World War 2. Although they may have been returned in varying conditions and mixed parts they are no different than our returning veterans who also returned in varying conditions and some times mixed parts. Their service deserves to be honored, not debased.

2. Thanks to the CMP, many individuals have been able to own a piece of American history at an affordable price. While they are not collector quality, they are definitely shootable and can enhance any collection of US martial firearms. Also a legacy to be passed down to our young, who seem to be uneducated about our history.

3. Although many of these returning veterans are not silk purses, they are not sow's ears either. One aspect of collecting M1903s and A3s is finding correct parts to put the veteran in authentic condition. The thrill of the hunt for correct parts can be as addicting as the hunt for game.

So my friends, forgive my slide toward the "Snob Side" and I hope I can do better in the future.

BEAR

[p246]

Takes a big bear to apologize....

[RCK]

Apology accepted here too. In 1., 2., and 3 above you have perfectly summarized the why Greek returns were and are valuable to everyone who purchased them. Another piece of M1903 and A3 "history" that should be accepted by collectors and shooters together.

[bruce]

Re: OP. Agree. When I bought my first rifle, it was a (horrors!!!) National Ordinance 03-A3. I shot it without mercy. Later had it rebarrelled w/ a new RA 1944 barrel for $42 OTD... half a weeks pay. Over the years I learned a lot about the 03 and 03-A3. They are today my favorite rifles. Jouster has been a great help supplementing the books available. It is much appreciated.

The Greek return 03 and 03-A3 rifles have been a real boon for shooters in general and even those looking for a very nice rifle. As a result of the Greek returns... I have a very nice SC 03-A3 that was rebuilt w/ a RA barrel. I have a Rem. 03 that was rebuilt w/ a HS 1944 barrel. And, I have a SA 03 (810,xxx) that was rebuilt w/ a Sedley 1944 barrel. These three rifles are all superlative shooters. They are also very nice for the eyes! Well... to be honest, the RA 03 is a little less easy on the eyes. The SC and SA are outstanding rifles. Each will hold less than 2 inches at 100 yds. from a good rest firing Winchester hunting ammo and my handloads. The RA 03... it will hold 10 shots under 2 inches firing my handloads. But, it's stock has a lot of dings. Oh well.

At least for a while, such wonderful rifles were available only through the CMP to people who qualified and wanted such a rifle. I am very thankful. The prices in the gunshops and gunshows were outrageous. THe CMP allowed folks to buy very nice rifles at a reasonable price and provide support for the future of the shooting sports. Excellent.

Nowadays the several 03 and 03-A3 rifles I own are worth more than what was paid to purchase them. Cool. One day my family will take possession of these rifles. My grandson will have his choice. My granddaughter will have her choice. Whatever they do not want, others in the family will get to enjoy owning and shooting. Sincerely. bruce.

[cplnorton]

I have never understood looking down at someone like this. But I do see guys do it all the time.

Which is honestly a real shame, becuase I guarantee there is always someone out there with better stuff than the guys who make these comments.

Plus I know they turn a lot of new collectors away. Which is the real shame as we need more people in this hobby than ever before. Especially since the 2nd Amendment is constantly under attack.

[clintonhater]

I guarantee there is always someone out there with better stuff than the guys who make these comments...

All it takes is money, and with most of the best stuff now being sold in well-publicized on-line auctions, it's so much easier (if you have the dough!) than in the primitive days when the dedicated collector was forced to trudge to gunshows or dealers or cultivate "connections" with other collectors.

[John Beard]

I took no offense whatsoever about your Greek rifle comments.

I handled and processed thousands of the rifles at the CMP and padded my collection with a few of them. As I mentioned in my previous post, the rifles are well-documented and were sold by the CMP, the modern-day equivalent of the DCM. The rifles were sold with a CMP Certificate of Authentication. One can spend $25 and get a letter of authentication showing who the rifle was sold to and where it was shipped akin to an SRS letter. The rifles, almost without exception, had excellent bores and make good shooters. Many of them had biscuit-patched stocks and handguards which I thought added character.

The rifles have gone up in value since the CMP sold them, further substantiating their collectability. While I do not place them in the same category as unissued originals, the rifles have a collecting venue unto themselves which is entirely worthy of consideration.

I commend you for recognizing the error of your thoughts and publicly making amends. We welcome and appreciate participants like you!

J.B. :hello:

[IditarodJoe]

One aspect of collecting M1903s and A3s is finding correct parts to put the veteran in authentic condition
Good, thought-provoking post, Bear. Authenticity, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. My first military surplus firearm was a 1943 SA Garand that I bought from the CMP North Store many years ago. It was sold as a Service Grade rifle - a fresh RRA rebuild with an as-new barrel and the wildest mixture of parts imaginable. The mismatched wood consists of a scarred birch buttstock, a vintage walnut lower handguard, and a brand new upper handguard (still had "fuzz" on it). According to the CMP procedures in place at that time, the rifle would have been pulled from the crate, given a cursory cleaning, been inspected and test fired, and put out for sale. Personally, I'm confident that the rifle I bought was exactly as it left RRA after rebuild in 1966. To me, that's as "authentic" as a military surplus rifle can get.

I've never really bought into the cachet of a rifle having a CMP certificate which simply shows that the receiver was sold by the CMP at a given point in time. As you note, there is a passion among a certain group of owners for swapping out parts to "correct" veteran battle rifles. (I've done it myself to a couple of other guns.) My confidence in this particular rifle's authenticity is based on first hand knowledge of it's history since the time of purchase from the CMP. With ANY used rifle purchased on the secondary market, a savvy buyer has to assume that it has been altered to some degree by a previous civilian owner.

I would never presume to belittle someone else's rifle. People buy these guns for a wide variety of reasons and, whether an investor-grade rod bayonet 1903 or a well used National Ordnance 1903A3, if the owner gets joy from possessing the firearm, then I'm happy for them. Myself, I take some satisfaction from the fact that I'm the only person who can ever know with certainty the true civilian history of this 1943 battle rifle.

[dave]

Can't people have an opinion different from yours without being called "snobs"? Or is it just the way they phrase it?

[Rick the Librarian]

It's easy, especially after you've had this "interest" for a few years, to let "snobbishness" slip in to your comments and I can confess I've done the same. I try to tailor my comments to who is doing the "asking" (newbie vs. long time collector) but I know I've slipped.

[PhillipM]

It's easy, especially after you've had this "interest" for a few years, to let "snobbishness" slip in to your comments and I can confess I've done the same. I try to tailor my comments to who is doing the "asking" (newbie vs. long time collector) but I know I've slipped.

Ditto me on drifting into snobby territory. On the other hand I had fun last night educating an 18 year old on his practically new 03A3. Usually tiresome questiones, date of mfg, can I put a scope on it, is it original, etc., I enjoyed answering instead of a snobby, Google is your friend reply I reserve for what I perceive to be laziness on the owner.

My favorite shooter is a MK1 Greek return that I had chuckindenver refinish after I polished off the last four on the bolt and it also wears a dupage C stock.

[BEAR]

Can't people have an opinion different from yours without being called "snobs"? Or is it just the way they phrase it?
Snobbery doesn't come with differing opinions. It comes with a belief that your knowledge (not you personally) and beliefs are superior to anyone else's and you are more than willing to tell them why.

Years ago when I used to skydive we understood that new members were the life blood of any club but the "Sky Gods" (experienced jumpers) would belittle them to the point where they would quit and we would struggle to find more new members. The Sky Gods were snobbery in action.

We can be experts without being snobs ... the evidence is here on this forum. The young collector's deserve our best as advisors and counselors as Phillip pointed out. They will carry on this love of firearms after we have long buried.

BEAR

[Rick the Librarian]

Once in a while, someone tries to pin the term "expert" on me. I gently correct them - I'm a "student", NOT an expert. I'm still learning with the rest of the crew!!

[PeteDavis]

Good going Bear.

See you at the tree.

PD

38094

[Jim in Salt Lake]

My first 1903 is a Greek Remington. When I got it is when I found this forum. Had to get a new stock as what came with it looked like it had been run over and blown up, but I kept the biscuit repaired hand guard. I just liked the look of the repair. It was rebarreled after 4k rounds and I still shoot it. Hopefully, I'll shoot out this barrel and do it again!

[John Beard]

I hope none of my posts have come across as being snobby or offensive. Certainly I have no such intention.

Sometimes I answer questions with simple "Yes" or "No" answers without elaborating. I like to follow the KISS principle - Keep It Simple, Stupid. Simple direct "Yes" or "No" answers are not easily misunderstood.

Frequently, I decline to elaborate publicly because of disclosure issues and restrictions. One should not interpret those as being snobby. Whenever someone PM's me and asks a question, I willingly endeavor to answer in full and ask that the information be kept in confidence. And forum participants have commendably established a pattern of trust.

J.B. :hello:

[blackhawknj]

So who pays attention to snobs ? With milsurps there is 1. Factory Correct 2. Period Correct 3. Arsenal Rebuild. I have a 1918 M1903 with the WWII "scant grip" stock. Not correct for 1918 but correct for WWII. I have a M1917 Winchester made in December 1918. An "Armistice Commemorative." Didn't see action in WWI but is Factory Correct. I have 2 M-1 Garands, 6 digit serial numbers, both rebuilt after WWII, one has a Korean black bolt. They both look they saw plenty of action.

[BEAR]

I hope none of my posts have come across as being snobby or offensive. Certainly I have no such intention.

Sometimes I answer questions with simple "Yes" or "No" answers without elaborating. I like to follow the KISS principle - Keep It Simple, Stupid. Simple direct "Yes" or "No" answers are not easily misunderstood.

J.B. :hello:

Mr. Beard you are the epitome of the true Southern Gentleman. With all your vast knowledge you are always willing to educate and correct (when needed) and never in a condescending manner. I have always enjoyed you input.

Shakespeare once penned "Brevity is the soul of wit" and that fits your answers to many questions. "Yes", "no", "maybe" is usually sufficient and if not, it should lead the questioner to do further research.

The purpose of my post was not to cause others to do soul searching but to simply say that "I" had begun slipping into the abyss. As I said before, this forum has a good report for shutting down the "arrogant ones"

blackhawknj asks "So who pays attention to snobs?" Unfortunately the young, new collector does because he looks up to those who have more knowledge and he wants to learn. If he is put down by one, he will assume the rest of us are cut from the same cloth and we have lost another from our hobby.

Ok, I've said enough, I think this subject has been "chawed 'nuff".