View Full Version : Barrel replacement comments (Win. / Criterion)
Hi,
I'm seriously considering replacing the W bbl. on my Win. 1917 with a Criterion bbl. My rifle is a Lend Lease (Canada, Denmark) with a not so hot bore. I have almost all W parts (hobby) but the bolt doesn't numbers match and I'm not sure the bbl. is original. The index lines line up but in small nos. there is a 106xxx on the bbl. though the recvr. is 99xxx. No tool marks on the bbl.. When I got it, the recvr. was poorly parked, though the bbl. has no trace of parking. It looks nice, thanks to my taking the liberty of painting the rec'vr. to match the bbl. Even the butt sling swivel screw is hollow. But - I can't get over the bore issue. My 03's all have nice bores, though it bothers me that one looks really nice with a new bbl. - but low serial no. It's marked OGEK. Any one care to comment (except on my mental issue with the bore)?
Thanks,
Dave
PS my local gunsmith has done these before and has the tools.
Interesting conundrum Dave. I have some questions about your rifle description first. The Canadians purchased rifles in 1940, then gave to the Danes after the war. Later imported by CAI in the '60s. OGEK rebuilds were during WWII, so a OGEK stock would be wrong for the time period. Also, I would think the American arsenals would replace a poor barrel and park it along with the receiver.
The above leads me to think someone other than the Government has altered the rifle. In that case, a new barrel to give the old girl a new life sounds like a good plan.
A question for more experienced members. Were Winchester barrels numbered to a receiver? I can't find a reference to it in Ferris' book, and doubt it, but?
Hi,
My comment about the OGEK marked low number '03 was in the context that all of my 03's have nice or better bbl's. and the 1917 bugs me because it doesn't. Unfortunately, that OGEK with the low serial no. won't be fired, despite it's new bbl.
The 1917 stock is marked PWR for Prince of Wales Rifles and only had traces of red paint it. It also came with an old leather service sling (brass hooks). I've read that CAI removed the bolts and shipped the rifles w/o them in order to save on import fees (parts vs firearms). May or may not be true.
I ordered the Criterion bbl. and will keep the W barrel. Wish I knew what those 106xxx numbers on the barrel are.
Dave
My bad on the Stock, I misread that. Ferris' book mentions the bolt separation from the rifles during import also, so likely true. Mine is a mismatch also, but luckily is a W bolt at least. Hard to say who would park just the receiver though, mystery of life I guess.
A lot of folks discount these rifles heavily due to the import stamp, but it doesn't bother me in this case. Just adds to the provenance.
Maybe someone will still comment on the barrel, in the mean time, enjoy the new one!
Col. Colt
07-12-2016, 04:44
My first question is always, how does it shoot now? I've seen some pretty bad bores shoot very well with ammo they liked... CC
My first question is always, how does it shoot now? I've seen some pretty bad bores shoot very well with ammo they liked... CC
Dave,
CC has a good point. Assuming your M1917 safe to shoot, try firing it a few times and see how accurate it is. A barrel with worn lands may also have throat and/or muzzle erosion which will affect accuracy.
Merc
It shoots about 5" at 50 yds. I've been looking at old sporter stocks, thinking that I might want to see how well it can shoot with the Criterion bbl. and some bedding. Gunsmith thinks I'm nuts to think that someone might want to do that. But, short of another butt plate, I have enough R and E parts to outfit a cut down military stock.
Pickax - while searching online for a sporter stock, I found one that the seller said was marked OGEK, and it was. He described it as a 1917 stock tough the picture showed a magic markered 03 A3 (it was an '03).
Dave,
Hobbies are rarely cheap and part of the fun is meeting the challenges that present themselves. People who own and restore old cars would understand perfectly. If a new barrel satisfies you, then I say go for it. Find yourself a gunsmith that thinks like you.
Merc
You said you would not fire it, despite the new barrel, so why bother and pay for it? I have been collecting old military rifles for years, many have original barrels which are in bad condition. That's part of the game, when I buy something I need for collection now, I don't even glance at the bore. Do little shooting anymore but if I do I have enough good bores to choose from. I may have 50-60 .22 RF in collection also, never look at those bores either have only one with a rough bore, made in 1920's before 'Kleen Bore' ammo. The general condition tho is excellent.
But that's just the way I look at it.
But you have already bought the barrel so I think your mind is made up and you are just looking for confirmation.
You said you would not fire it, despite the new barrel, so why bother and pay for it? I have been collecting old military rifles for years, many have original barrels which are in bad condition. That's part of the game, when I buy something I need for collection now, I don't even glance at the bore. Do little shooting anymore but if I do I have enough good bores to choose from. I may have 50-60 .22 RF in collection also, never look at those bores either have only one with a rough bore, made in 1920's before 'Kleen Bore' ammo. The general condition tho is excellent.
But that's just the way I look at it.
But you have already bought the barrel so I think your mind is made up and you are just looking for confirmation.
Dave,
At the end of the day, I think FCPDave just wants all his rifles to have good bores and is willing to pay to accomplish this goal. He says he does shoot them so it might be worth it to shoot the '17 with a new barrel. He already has the replacement, so why not try it?
My early '17 Winchester came with a very minty barrel and I do enjoy shooting it. The degree of accuracy it achieves at 100 yards with the original open sights is amazing and probably comparable to a new rifle. Now, replacing a military stock on a '17 with a sporter isn't something I'd do, but that's just me.
Merc
It shoots about 5" at 50 yds. I've been looking at old sporter stocks, thinking that I might want to see how well it can shoot with the Criterion bbl. and some bedding. Gunsmith thinks I'm nuts to think that someone might want to do that. But, short of another butt plate, I have enough R and E parts to outfit a cut down military stock.
Pickax - while searching online for a sporter stock, I found one that the seller said was marked OGEK, and it was. He described it as a 1917 stock tough the picture showed a magic markered 03 A3 (it was an '03).
Ogden under Elmer Keith, and Ed Klouser did rebuild '17s for WWII My mixmaster Eddystone is an example.
Give us a report on your sporter conversion when you finish it up.
Dave,
At the end of the day, I think FCPDave just wants all his rifles to have good bores and is willing to pay to accomplish this goal. He says he does shoot them so it might be worth it to shoot the '17 with a new barrel. He already has the replacement, so why not try it?
My early '17 Winchester came with a very minty barrel and I do enjoy shooting it. The degree of accuracy it achieves at 100 yards with the original open sights is amazing and probably comparable to a new rifle. Now, replacing a military stock on a '17 with a sporter isn't something I'd do, but that's just me.
Merc
Well as I am primarily a collector I guess I was only thinking about value. If he was using a military barrel that would be different, even tho it would not be original, rifles were rebuilt. But as I said 'just me'. Threw it out there as something to think about.
Don't worry - the rifle won't be ruined or anything like that. The W barrel will stay with the rifle. If I get a sporter stock, it will be low dollar with my extra parts, and only to shoot to check how well it can shoot. That stock will stay with the rifle also, as well as the orig. sling and a Can. marked bayonet/scabbard.
I can understand collecting these rifles w/o regard to bore condition though since more than a few friends said I was crazy to want to change out the barrel just to make it shoot better. Thinking back, I wish that I had concentrated on just a few interesting rifles. Here I am with 7.7 Jap., 6.5 Carcano, 8mm Mauser, 30.06, .30 40 Krag, 45.70, 7.62 NATO, 5.56 NATO, .303 Brit., 7.5 French, 7.5 Swiss, 8mm rimmed, 7.62x39, 7.62x54 and .30 Carbine - just for rifles. I was working my way around the world. Now I can't even decide what to shoot. Not a good plan after all.
Impressive collection. If you're reconsidering replacing the barrel, I'd pick out a few of the rifles that are in the best shape and let those be the ones that you take to the range. It's always more fun when you can actually hit what you're aiming for. Both groups have value. Rifles with worn bolt lugs and shot-out barrels have a history to consider. How valuable would any rifle be if it was used in a major battle even if it's no longer capable of shooting accurately?
Head space gauges aren't expensive and there are simple ways to measure throat wear mentioned throughout this forum that will help you to determine the condition of your rifles. Let the worn rifles become the wall hangers.
Merc
BIG PROBLEM - After I bought the Criterion bbl., I took everything to the gunsmith. Yesterday I stopped by and he gave everything back to me saying that because of a clarification of some sort of rules (he is FFL folder) he is not able to install my bbl. He said that he would need a manufacturer's license to set the head space (it's short chambered) and it's too expensive for the work he does (he is a part time gunsmith). Does this sound right? I sent an email to Criterion but haven't heard back yet. Originally, he told me that he's done a no. of these and he wrote a work order for it. Previously he built a nice AK for me so he knows that I pay my bills w/o complaint.
Dave,
There are gunsmiths who frequently post on this forum and maybe one will see your latest post and respond. I would ask a major gun dealer in your area (i.e. Cabela's, Gander Mountain, etc.) if they can recommend a reputable gunsmith and see if he would be willing to handle your job.
Merc
Boy that is the first I ever heard of that. I know quite a few gunsmiths and none of them had a problem changing out a barrel. He did not make the barrel and is only putting it on your rifle. Then he finish reams it and checks the head space and your good to go. That would be like a mechanic putting new plugs or replacement parts on your car. Same thing as far as I can see. I have never heard of ATF declaring anything like that and most if not all gunsmiths have FFL's. I wonder if he thinks the old wives tale about 1917 barrels cracking the receiver when a new barrel is installed? See if you can get hold of Chuckindenver. He has changed many many 1917 barrels. He hangs around here on the forums some days.
Cosine26
08-21-2016, 09:24
I once had a gunsmith tell me that if I brought him an action only, he could not install a barrel because that would constitute manufacturing. However if I brought him a barreled action and had him rebarrel it, that was only a repair not a manufacturing effort. That was a long time ago. Maybe it is how the particular gunsmith interprets the regulations or his local ATF agency sees it.
FWIW
Col. Colt
08-27-2016, 09:40
New Obama/BATF Executive Order making ALL Gunsmiths into "Manufacturers" if they drill, tap or cut on a barrel - must get a $2275 yearly license and register as if they were an Arms Exporter, with complete records. Obama is the Gift that Keeps on Giving! He figured a way to get rid of a LOT of gunsmiths! CC
That makes gunsmiths manufacturers if all they're doing is replacing a barrel since reaming is required. Add that to the long list of Obama disasters.
Dave in NGA
08-31-2016, 09:36
My Winchester 1917 came with a barrel in poor condition. I could throw rocks with more accuracy. I replaced the original W barrel with a new JA barrel which produced good groups. Later I purchased a new replacement W barrel dated 1/19 and replaced the JA barrel. After selling the original W barrel with the bad bore and the like new JA barrel I broke even on the cost. Now my Winchester 1917 rifle has a Winchester barrel and shoots just fine. Like you, Dave, I only like rifles with barrels in good condition. Over the past twenty years I've replaced a couple dozen barrels on 1903's, 1917's, carbines and M1's because they wouldn't shoot as good as I thought they should.
Some people like to admire their rifles and others like to shoot them. If they don't shoot well, I correct the problem or get rid of them.
oldtirediron
09-04-2016, 03:33
I have been very lucky over the years to buy many Winchester and Remington 1917 Enfields that were in near new condition but some one cut the rear ears off and put it in a cheap sporter stock- usually asking the person that did it, they usually had the original stock rear sight and metal parts--They seem to hve dried up lately, but i just saw a cheap Eddystone sporter with a great barrel if anyone needs the barrel-- It just seems to be a big shame that the minty guns got hacked up into $149.00 sporters !
I know this is late to post but will throw in my 2 cents worth.
While many of the rifles are not rarere and people want to shoot them, in this case Danish Reuttrns are not common. Not exacly rare but not common.
I think its worth keeping as is. If you aren't going to shoot it a nice bore makes no difference. Find one that is non collector and put the barrel on that one.
Also, most of those Danish Reutnrs came into Vermnotn and were marked SVT (or some such) CCI would be more rare., I don't know if that adds anyting.
Mine is actually not too bad with a 3 on each TE and MW, Shoots ok. Have not tried to devlope loads for it. Stock matchs the receiver SN, bolt does not so the usualy mix and match.
I don't buy that a gun smith can't change a barrel without being an mfg. Its done all the time.
What I suspect is he got cold feet.
That is good news as you do need the right tools to do the job (see Chuck in Denver.)
As the barrel needs to be cut (or should be) to keep from wracking receiver, that of course wrecks the barrel.
He is at Warbirds (Warpath?) posts a lot. He may do it differently than I remember, I do remember he uses a pipe wrench to put barrel on, he can remove the marks.
I hadn't thought about the "bbl. cutting". You may have something concerning the PT gunsmith also. That changes things because I was planning to some day provide the next owner with the W bbl. and it's bolt, as well as the rifle with the Criterion bbl. and it's bolt. Not much of a plan if the orig. bbl. is cut. This shows the folly of accumulating lots of rifles instead of concentrating on a few and getting to know them really well. I think I'll sell the Criterion bbl. and bolt I picked up for it. What was I thinking, trying to "buy my way around the world" with C&R's and CMP's?
Most of my "gun time" now is is with the VFW M1's and '03's that I take care of.
Well everyone should have a couple of 1917s in the closet.
You might email Chuck and see what his thoughts are.
I haven't' see a Danish Return since I got mine so I don't know what their value is if any extra.
they certainly are an interesting sub set of the 1917s and a round about Journey they did make.
Mine was a vague and awful picture but I saw enough of the red band to figure it was worth the 450 I spent on it.
Richard H Brown Jr
12-19-2016, 04:50
Re Barrel Markings:
Part number, Drawing number, contractor ID, Steel Lot identification, Mfr contract, date manufactured. The possibles list goes on and on.
R Brown
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