View Full Version : Spanish Mauser 7X57 reloads
I have a sweet looking 7X57 M1916 1931 Spanish Mauser that seems to be in nice mechanical shape. It has a nice clean bore with crisp rifling but doesn't shoot as well as I think it should. I've never grouped better than 12 inches at 50 yards with reloads. Factory ammo was worse.
My reload formula includes using flat based 7mm 139 grain .284" bullets and 1 grain over the starting load of BLC-(2) powder.
I also have a 1944 Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk 1* that's also in nice shape mechanically that didn't seem to like boat tails but will shoot flat bases very accurately also with 1 grain over starting load of BLC-(2) powder.
Has anyone had better luck with a different 7X57 reload formula than what I'm using?
Merc
I have a sweet looking 7X57 M1916 1931 Spanish Mauser that seems to be in nice mechanical shape. It has a nice clean bore with crisp rifling but doesn't shoot as well as I think it should. I've never grouped better than 12 inches at 50 yards with reloads. Factory ammo was worse.
My reload formula includes using flat based 7mm 139 grain .284" bullets and 1 grain over the starting load of BLC-(2) powder.
I also have a 1944 Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk 1* that's also in nice shape mechanically that didn't seem to like boat tails but will shoot flat bases very accurately also with 1 grain over starting load of BLC-(2) powder.
Has anyone had better luck with a different 7X57 reload formula than what I'm using?
Merc
Curious that you're getting such a spread at such a short distance. Any evidence of keyholing, such as slightly egged/elongated holes in the target? Have you checked for throat wear? The reason I mention the possibility is because I once had one of those Soviet reclaimed 98K's which, to the naked eye, had a perfect bore; and yet it keyholed @ 25yds. Ultimately found that at least a full inch of throat/barrel was burned out. I can't imagine the circumstances under which a soldier would fire so fast to cause that to happen, until I think about what happened on the Russian front. Anyway, you might want to confirm just how much "jump" you're dealing with in the chamber.
Curious that you're getting such a spread at such a short distance. Any evidence of keyholing, such as slightly egged/elongated holes in the target? Have you checked for throat wear? The reason I mention the possibility is because I once had one of those Soviet reclaimed 98K's which, to the naked eye, had a perfect bore; and yet it keyholed @ 25yds. Ultimately found that at least a full inch of throat/barrel was burned out. I can't imagine the circumstances under which a soldier would fire so fast to cause that to happen, until I think about what happened on the Russian front. Anyway, you might want to confirm just how much "jump" you're dealing with in the chamber.
No keyholes, just accuracy issues.
Flats can sometimes be more accurately fired through worn barrels from what I've learned from reloading and firing my No. 4. I thought the bore was ok but the original factory .303 ammo was FMJ BTs and was all over the target. I reloaded with flat base soft points and it fired good groups that were improved further by increasing the powder charge by one grain over minimum. I was hoping for similar results in the Mauser but wanted to see if anyone had achieved success with a different formula.
The original stock on the Mauser was sportrerized and now only the base remains. The hand guards and barrel bands are long gone. I tried it and it shot very erratically but no keyholing. I floated the barrel somewhat and noticed a lot of improvement but still room for more.
I found an exact duplicate of my Spanish Mauser at an antique shop with an original maple stock but the barrel was all shot out. I bought the rifle and swapped stocks and the results are pretty much stayed the same but at least now, all shots are on the paper at 50 yards. That's what had me leaning towards trying a different reload formula. The muzzle doesn't swallow a bullet but a 'smith will have to tell me if the throat is worn.
No keyholes, just accuracy issues.
Flats can sometimes be more accurately fired through worn barrels from what I've learned from reloading and firing my No. 4. I thought the bore was ok but the original factory .303 ammo was FMJ BTs and was all over the target. I reloaded with flat base soft points and it fired good groups that were improved further by increasing the powder charge by one grain over minimum. I was hoping for similar results in the Mauser but wanted to see if anyone had achieved success with a different formula.
The original stock on the Mauser was sportrerized and now only the base remains. The hand guards and barrel bands are long gone. I tried it and it shot very erratically but no keyholing. I floated the barrel somewhat and noticed a lot of improvement but still room for more.
I found an exact duplicate of my Spanish Mauser at an antique shop with an original maple stock but the barrel was all shot out. I bought the rifle and swapped stocks and the results are pretty much stayed the same but at least now, all shots are on the paper at 50 yards. That's what had me leaning towards trying a different reload formula. The muzzle doesn't swallow a bullet but a 'smith will have to tell me if the throat is worn.
You can get an idea of how much "jump" your rifle might have by merely dropping a bullet into the downward pointed chamber and then running a fired case with a slightly crimped mouth in behind it. Be sure to get the rim of the case under the extractor before you run the bolt fully forward and turn it down. If the case mouth has been suitably "crimped", the bullet will be extracted with the case. The OAL of the resultant case/bullet assembly will give an idea of just how far your bullet is moving forward before it engages the rifling. This process won't tell you the total condition of the throat, other than if the throat is worn well forward of spec. , which may be all you need to know anyway if it is.
You can get an idea of how much "jump" your rifle might have by merely dropping a bullet into the downward pointed chamber and then running a fired case with a slightly crimped mouth in behind it. Be sure to get the rim of the case under the extractor before you run the bolt fully forward and turn it down. If the case mouth has been suitably "crimped", the bullet will be extracted with the case. The OAL of the resultant case/bullet assembly will give an idea of just how far your bullet is moving forward before it engages the rifling. This process won't tell you the total condition of the throat, other than if the throat is worn well forward of spec. , which may be all you need to know anyway if it is.
I'll have to try that.
Once the loose bullet has been pressed into the lightly crimped cartridge by the bolt, how close in overall length would you expect them to be to an unfired cartridge if the throat is within spec? Close to the same size?
There's not much space on the case neck, so is it reasonable to assume that the further out to the end of the case neck the bullet seats, the more erosion has occurred to the throat?
How much throat erosion can a rifle sustain and still shoot reasonably well? My Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk 1* might tell us that since it seems to prefer flats to boat tails which could be caused by throat erosion.
I knew there had to be a simple way to check throat erosion. Thanks for the tip.
Merc
Merc,
That method is best used in a comparative fashion. For instance, I have a number of M1917 rifles all of which have nice bores. Using the previously mention technique, the average "jump" between the OAL of a known GI factory M2 round, and the OAL of an M2 bullet pressed into the case mouth, runs around .205". Using that average as the "norm" I can ROUGHLY gage the throat wear of other M1917 rifles. In the case of the previously mentioned 98k, the bullet was completely air borne in the excessive "free bore". The gas rushing by it caused it to tip slightly before it slammed into the lands, which resulted in the bullet going down the barrel in a "cocked" fashion. The bullet immediately went into a wobble upon exiting the barrel, which resulted in key holing at only 25yds.
I have no idea what the Spanish arsenal standards were, but you might want to try my .205" inch figure as a comparison guide. Have you printed any rounds at 100yds? I ask because tumbling might be difficult to detect at 50yds, but might better manifest itself @ 100yds. Obviously something is wrong if you have that kind of spread @ 50yds with BOTH your reloads AND factory loads. If you observe nice, round holes @100yds I think you can eliminate key holing/tumble as an issue. The info for the 7x57 in my "ancient" Lyman loading manual notes: Most 7m/m's are imported rifles and their grove diameters can vary considerably. We recommend that you slug your barrel to determine its exact groove diameter.". According to the manual the nominal groove diameter is .2865. There are similar admonishments regarding groove diameters for the 7.65 Argentine, Jap rifles; and especially the 303 where it is noted: "In rifles we have checked, diameters range from .309 to .317. We suggest slugging your barrel ...and using the jacketed bullet which corresponds most closely to your groove diameter (.311-.312 or 313.). If your groove diameter should be large (over .314) results will be poor". I mention the previous info because its possible that you might be dealing with oversized barrels in both the 7mm & 303. Going the other way, I have a WWII Australian #1 Lee Enfield with such a TIGHT bore that I use 308 bullets in it. The 308 bullets I've recovered @ the range show no sign of gas "blow by".
I'll have to try shooting the Mauser again at the 100 yard targets and take a closer look at the resulting bullet holes. I'm pretty sure they were round. I should probably do the jump measurement first before shooting to see what that looks like. In your experience, does a fully resized reloaded case from which a bullet has been pulled have the right amount of remaining crimp to properly seat a dropped bullet or would a partially crimped case that's been fired work better?
Merc
I'll have to try shooting the Mauser again at the 100 yard targets and take a closer look at the resulting bullet holes. I'm pretty sure they were round. I should probably do the jump measurement first before shooting to see what that looks like. In your experience, does a fully resized reloaded case from which a bullet has been pulled have the right amount of remaining crimp to properly seat a dropped bullet or would a partially crimped case that's been fired work better?
Merc
Use a fired case and merely turn the lip of the mouth in a bit, maybe in several places, with a needle nose plier (ect). You just want the case mouth to have enough grip to pull the bullet back out without the bullet slipping., but yet want the case mouth to slip over the bullet without a great deal of pressure. It's a "happy medium" sort of thing. The test should be repeated three or four times to insure that the brass isn't pulling off the bullet while retracting it from the chamber.
OK, thanks. I'll let you know how I do.
Merc
Use a fired case and merely turn the lip of the mouth in a bit, maybe in several places, with a needle nose plier (ect). You just want the case mouth to have enough grip to pull the bullet back out without the bullet slipping., but yet want the case mouth to slip over the bullet without a great deal of pressure. It's a "happy medium" sort of thing. The test should be repeated three or four times to insure that the brass isn't pulling off the bullet while retracting it from the chamber.
KWC,
Too bad this thread is buried under the current title. This is pretty valuable info that lots of troubled shooters who don't know about would find useful.
Merc
KWC,
Too bad this thread is buried under the current title. This is pretty valuable info that lots of troubled shooters who don't know about would find useful.
Merc
It's a little bit on the order of a poor man's Stoney Point Bullet Depth Comparator. You can pretty much do the same thing with a cleaning rod with a blunt end jag on it. Have a second set of hands press the bullet forward against the lands with the easer end of a pencil while you insert the cleaning rod until the jag contacts the tip of the bullet. Scribe the cleaning tight against the muzzle crown with a VERY sharp pencil. Knock the bullet out and place a complete round in the chamber. If it is a live round have the second set of hands push it forward in the chamber. If it is dummy round you can close the bolt on it and lightly push the round back against the bolt face with the cleaning. Once again scribe the cleaning rod. (The second method will encompass the head space into the measurement). Measure the distance between the two pencil marks with your micrometer. This method won't give you the precision of the Stoney Point tool, but it's probably good to within .005" I'd think. I used the second method to set the depth on my 25-20 Winchester with the Sierra 75gr. spire tip, HP, flat base bullet, commonly used in the 22-250, out to about .010" of the lands in my old Savage 23B bolt gun. Loaded out that far it's way too long to work through the action, but it does allow for the use of more ACC 1680 powder to bring the velocity up to around 2,250fps with no pressure issues. That muzzle velocity ends up being good enough to fully open the bullet @ 125yds on chucks and coyotes. It would probably makes a good turkey round where allowed.
"...didn't seem to like boat tails..." No. 4 Rifles are like that. Accuracy with 'em is usually more about bullet vs barrel ID though.
I'm wondering if your Mauser has some kind of bedding issue. Or a muzzle damage thing.
It's a little bit on the order of a poor man's Stoney Point Bullet Depth Comparator. You can pretty much do the same thing with a cleaning rod with a blunt end jag on it. Have a second set of hands press the bullet forward against the lands with the easer end of a pencil while you insert the cleaning rod until the jag contacts the tip of the bullet. Scribe the cleaning tight against the muzzle crown with a VERY sharp pencil. Knock the bullet out and place a complete round in the chamber. If it is a live round have the second set of hands push it forward in the chamber. If it is dummy round you can close the bolt on it and lightly push the round back against the bolt face with the cleaning. Once again scribe the cleaning rod. (The second method will encompass the head space into the measurement). Measure the distance between the two pencil marks with your micrometer. This method won't give you the precision of the Stoney Point tool, but it's probably good to within .005" I'd think. I used the second method to set the depth on my 25-20 Winchester with the Sierra 75gr. spire tip, HP, flat base bullet, commonly used in the 22-250, out to about .010" of the lands in my old Savage 23B bolt gun. Loaded out that far it's way too long to work through the action, but it does allow for the use of more ACC 1680 powder to bring the velocity up to around 2,250fps with no pressure issues. That muzzle velocity ends up being good enough to fully open the bullet @ 125yds on chucks and coyotes. It would probably makes a good turkey round where allowed.
Well, I checked throat erosion on my three old rifles using the above method. With the bolt removed, I inserted a bare bullet, point first, into the bore through the receiver and pushed it forward with a short cleaning rod until it stopped and engaged the rifling. I held it in place with the short cleaning rod and inserted a wood dowel in through the muzzle until it reached the point of the bullet and I marked the dowel with a pencil at the end of the muzzle. I popped the bare bullet out with the dowel rod and then held the live round inside the receiver with my fingers and took the second measurement by again inserting the dowel rod in the muzzle and making a second mark on the dowel rod at the end of the muzzle after it made contact with the point of the bullet. The gap between the two marks represents the amount of throat erosion present. The wider the gap, the more throat erosion has occurred. My results are mixed but interesting:
Good news first:
Early Winchester M1917 Serial Number 65030 - There is no detectable gap between the bare bullet and the live cartridge (zero erosion). I'm shooting 150 grain boat tailed soft points and the rifle is accurate. I didn't expect to see much of a gap since the rifle looks practically unused, but no measureable gap is still pretty amazing for a 98 year old rifle and confirmed my belief that it was never used during the war. I'm still shooting the first box of factory loaded .30-06 soft point ammo and will be reloading 150 grain FMJ boat tails.
1944 Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk 1* - There is a .250" gap between the bare bullet and the live cartridge. I'm shooting 150 grain flat based soft points and the rifle is still accurate. OK, a .250" wide gap is not exactly good news, but it's a war-time rifle that has probably seen it's share of action and may have fired 5000 or more bullets. The fact that it's still capable of shooting nice tight groups at 100 yards with .250" gap is still pretty special. I'd mentioned before that it didn't shoot boat tails accurately and maybe the .250" gap is the reason. I can try to lengthen the current COL to the maximum COL for the 150 grain bullet to decrease the gap although it won't be by very much and probably won't have much of an effect on accuracy. This might be a good indication that a rifle with a gap as wide as .250" can still be fired accurately if certain types and combinations of hand loaded ammo is used.
Now the bad news:
1931 Spanish Mauser - There is a .435" gap between the bare bullet and the live cartridge. I'm shooting 139 grain flat based soft points. The Mauser's gap is .185" longer than the No. 4's gap and the rifle is less than accurate but still can hit within a 12" circle at 50 yards. Right now, my cartridge overall length is 2.895". My new Sierra Reloading Manual says that I can go up to 2.975" with a 140 grain bullet but I would need to stretch the COL out to 3.080" to match the No. 4's .250" gap which might represent the maximum tolerable throat wear. I've seen other 7X57 cartridge diagrams that show a maximum COL of 3.065" but involves using larger bullets. I'll try lengthening the COL to the maximum for 140 grain bullets and see what effect it has. My current powder charge is only one grain over the starting load so I have room to increase the charge a little.
So, my rifles are in the three stages of their life span as shooters. One is minty, one is worn but is still capable of shooting accurately and one is probably worn beyond its useful life as an accurate shooter unless I can find a combination of bullet length and powder charge that works better than what I'm using now. However, if my experience is typical, it would indicate that some degree of throat erosion might be tolerable. This experience will have far reaching benefits when I find other old military rifles that I want to buy.
Merc
Vern Humphrey
04-12-2016, 04:26
My technique is to use an unsized case, and seat the bullet with a bit of toilet paper to make a good fit, then chamber the round and eject.
My technique is to use an unsized case, and seat the bullet with a bit of toilet paper to make a good fit, then chamber the round and eject.
We discussed the seated bullet method so that was an option. Either method apparently works. Shopping around for old military guns got a lot more complicated but should at least allow us to separate the shooters from the wall hangers.
Merc
You might try a much heavier bullet. That's what I load. Of course my barrel is a sewer pipe but it does OK.
You might try a much heavier bullet. That's what I load. Of course my barrel is a sewer pipe but it does OK.
Joe,
That's what I was thinking. A longer bullet would help suck up the some of the excessive barrel space. I've never heard of the possibility util recently. It but it might a worth be a try
Merc
Vern Humphrey
04-17-2016, 05:29
That's often the solution with early smokeless powder rifle cartridges. I have a 6.5X55 Swedish Mauser. That rifle was originally designed to shoot a 160 grain bullet. Remington 140 grain bullets in 6.5mm have two canelures, and I always seat the bullet so the rear canelure is flush with the case mouth. This causes the bullet to be WAAAAY out there, and closer to the throat -- and that's what the rifle likes.
Has anyone ever had success shooting round nose bullets in rifles with excessive throat wear? My Spanish Mauser came with a few old round nose 174 gr Remington's from the 1950s with the lead ends either distorted or missing so I never fired them.
Merc
Vern Humphrey
04-25-2016, 03:37
Yep. I bought a Spanish M1916 in 1956. The only ammo you could get was those old Remingtons or the equivalent Winchester-Western. They would hold about a 3" group with the issue iron sights, which was all I had.
Yep. I bought a Spanish M1916 in 1956. The only ammo you could get was those old Remingtons or the equivalent Winchester-Western. They would hold about a 3" group with the issue iron sights, which was all I had.
Vern,
I compared the 174 gr round nose bullets to the 139 gr soft point bullets that I've been shooting and thought the shape of round nose bullets would overcome some of the .435 jump gap, engage the rifling a bit sooner and possibly shoot straighter.
Too bad I ignored this clue. I probably have a dozen boxes of reloaded 7 mm Mauser with the 139 gr soft point bullets.
Do you still own the Spanish Mauser?
The old box of 20 Remington round noses (with 4 left unfired) is marked $4.75 so it must also be from the 1950s.
Merc
Vern Humphrey
04-25-2016, 07:03
That old Mauser went down the gun-trading trail long ago.
And you don't know what $4.75 was in those days. You could get a M1903A3 for $30 in those days, and I wanted one so bad I could taste it -- but $30 was far more than I could come up with.
Today I have two M1903A3s -- a Smith-Corona and a Remington. The first cost me $185, and the other was given to me.
I got the 1916 Spanish Mauser as a "gift" from a friend who made an unfortunate attempt to sportrerize it 20 plus years ago. I got what initially looked like a really nice barrel and action but he cut off the fore stock and lost just about everything else. I found another complete 1916 Spanish Mauser at an antique shop last summer that had a shot-out barrel but everything else was in excellent shape. Both were made in 1931 so all the parts fit perfectly.
I've since learned a few gunsmith testing techniques from the guys here that has allowed me to further assess the rifle's condition and found that it's throat is probably worn beyond being accurately fired unless a reload combination can be found that compensates for the wear. That's the fun of reloading.
Merc
I went to the Ohio Civil War Gun Show on Saturday and spoke to a gun dealer who had several Mausers for sale. He seemed to know a lot about them so I asked him if he knew anything about the ammo type that the Spanish Mauser uses and he said that the chamber was definitely made to fire a 7X57 174 gr round nose cartridge. I also arrived at this conclusion but it was good to hear the same from a knowledgeable source.
Vern Humphrey
05-08-2016, 02:40
Of course they were made to fire standard 7X57 Mauser ammo! The first Mausers the Spanish bought were true Mausers, and the 7X57 was the standard cartridge designed for those rifles.
Now, the Mausers converted to 7.62 CETME are NOT up to standard 7.62 NATO pressures, and shouldn't be used with standard .308 Ammo.
I measured the jump gap in the barrel of my worn Spanish Mauser barrel (the one with the shot-out rifling) and it measured .435" which is identical to the jump gap in the barrel of my other unworn Spanish Mauser with the crisp rifling.
Now I'm wondering if the .435" jump gap is an original unworn measurement and was intentionally cut longer to accommodate the larger round nose bullet.
Anyone out there with a M1916 Spanish Mauser who would be willing to measure the rifle's jump gap for comparison?
Learning by bits and pieces and reverse engineering.
Merc
Vern Humphrey
05-09-2016, 02:39
Now I'm wondering if the .435" jump gap is an original unworn measurement and was intentionally cut longer to accommodate the larger round nose bullet.
You're exactly right. Nineteenth century smokeless powder rifles were intended to be loaded with loooooong, round nose bullets and are throated accordingly. You will often get best accuracy with these rifles by seating the bullets way out there.
You're exactly right. Nineteenth century smokeless powder rifles were intended to be loaded with loooooong, round nose bullets and are throated accordingly. You will often get best accuracy with these rifles by seating the bullets way out there.
I was really close to making my old Spaniard a wall hanger. It's an attractive "short" rifle that will be fun to shoot once it's chambered with the correct ammo.
Merc
This thread reminds me of my 6.5 Carcano. Those little guns are widely maligned and misunderstood. The WWII rifles were chambered for 160 gr. round nose FMJ's and they were .2657" in diameter. Just about everybody, including the FBI, used .264 dia spire points and Hornady recommended and sold .268 gr. round nose bullets. Incidentally those old round nose bullets have steel cores and still look pretty pristine even dug out of the berm.
With some help from a gunsmith friend, I took a Carcano M-38 and mounted a 3/4" Weaver scope on a side mount. You have to mount the scope turned 90 degrees to keep the adjustment knob from interfering with the enbloc clip... Thus windage becomes elevation and vice versa. I have some .2657/160 gr. round nose projectiles pulled from WWII surplus ammo and it will shoot them into under 1" at 50 yards. Surprisingly, it will also shoot PPU 139 gr, factory rounds into 1.5."
The old bore looks pretty bad, but has strong lands and dark grooves. The one accuracy enhancement that helped was to recrown the muzzle.
I haven't seen very many Carcano rifles. A few here and there at gun shows. Trivia - it was L. H. Oswalds weapon of choice. Sounds like it's a sweet shooter in spite of the barrel condition. Finding and shooting the original ammo can make all the difference in accuracy.
Merc
I took my M1916 Spanish Mauser that's fitted with a long eye relief scope to the range today to see how well the new 174 grain round nose bullets I reloaded performed. I fired a few rounds from a rack to zero the rifle at 25 yards, made a few windage and elevation adjustments to the scope and placed the final shot close to the target center. Encouraged by the last shot, I moved out to the 50 yard target, fired a few more rounds and hit close to the target center with only one minor windage adjustment required. The accuracy of the next few rounds fired deteriorated slightly with bullets began hitting to he right of the target center by several inches. Altogether, I fired 11 rounds. The barrel was warm but not overheated. I decided to allow the scope settings to remain where they are and I will return to the range with a cold barrel to see where the bullets hit the target and what happens as the barrel temperature climbs.
Merc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.